Neeti Biyani: Thank you, Abdul. And good morning from Riyadh. Thank you so much for joining us. Whether you’re here in person or whether you’re joining us virtually, I am Neeti Biani. And I am senior advisor of strategy and development with the APNIC Foundation. I’m based in New Delhi in India. It is such a privilege to be able to have some space to comment on the various intersecting issues that we’re going to be discussing today. How to empower, how to empower women, and how to empower Afghan women towards an extremely important outcome that is education. Let me start by telling you a little bit about the APNIC Foundation. We were founded in 2017, and we have technical roots. So our partner organization, which is APNIC, is the regional internet registry in the Asia-Pacific. We are mandated with slightly wider, more broad issues towards internet development, digital development, and digital transformation in 56 economies in Asia and the Pacific. We work cross-sectionally, intersectionally on a number of issues with partners and communities, especially in South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia, and the Pacific, in Oceania. Today’s topic sort of makes me wonder about the sort of collective impact that we need to have with a wide number of partners, from governments, to commercial entities, to civil society, to technical community, as well as independent experts, academia, to come together and address various issues with respect to the community that we’re trying to address today, that we’re concerned with today. And that is Afghan women, including Afghan girls, gender-diverse people in Afghanistan. Afghanistan. Given the geopolitical situation, given the socio-economic situation in Afghanistan today, there are very many structural issues facing Afghan girls, women, gender diverse people in the country. Right from, you know, having devices, to use of devices, to having privacy on devices, to more normative social issues that may not allow complete usage or complete agency over the use of such devices, connectivity, you know, meaningful access, and the ability to choose, the ability to have control over, you know, how women and girls connect, how they participate in the digital economy, how they learn, how they work, how they connect with each other, how they access opportunities. This is by no means a small task. It’s a very tall order. It’s a very tall order, and it is not possible for any one entity to be able to, to be able to solve on their own, or to even begin to address on their own. And which is why I would like to maybe, you know, bring forward a framework of collective impact, you know, where we can partner with one another, where we can identify the gaps, identify the capabilities that need to be built, identify how we could partner with one another, and bring into, you know, the equation, devices, connectivity, access, digital literacy, you know, even, even linguistic diversity, considering that many, many women, girls participants in this, in this conversation, are actually not consuming information or even looking for opportunities in English, or, you know, one of the more widely spoken, widely accepted languages in the world. So there are many, many issues at very many levels, which I’m sure that we’ll get into. And I think my fellow panelists today who have been living in Afghanistan or have lived experience in Afghanistan have so many more stories to tell and much, much more informed than perhaps I can ever be. So with this, I’ll perhaps pass it back. And happy to come in later.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you very much, Nitin. I would like to request each of our distinguished speakers to first shortly introduce themselves one by one and then we’ll be jumping to the questions. Thank you very much. So over to you, Anja.
Anja Gengo: Well, thank you very much, Keyur. And very good morning to everyone. I usually am not late for any of my meetings or sessions, but I think you’ll understand me and excuse me. And the Secretariat is kind of the central focal point or entity for the organization. And this is the very first day when everything started its implementation. It’s a result of a couple of months of work. So we had to be in multiple places this morning. But it is really coincidental that I was just in a session on, it’s called the Women’s Summit in Internet Governance, organized by my dear friend, Baratang. And we just spoke a lot about the importance of closing gender-based digital divide, which is still at an alarming pace and overall speaking on the statistics. But it is also good that we are making progress looking back in the past two decades. And we mentioned quite a lot, Afghanistan, especially women and girls in Afghanistan, the challenging situation that they are now. We spoke about the denial of the basic human rights, which is the right to education, and how important digital especially now it’s really a lifeline for girls and women there where digital represents the only opportunity to continue with education, to continue with networking, communicating with others, channeling voices back and forth and that’s why the infrastructure itself is now more than ever important to be able to support implementation of human rights especially for women and girls there. I spoke quite a lot about not long time ago, I think it was 2019 maybe, when I had a pleasure to go also to Afghanistan to work with Tamar, Gayur and with really a lot of colleagues there and on that particular note it was one of the most impressive national IGFs that I’ve been to in terms of the participation, in terms of the program structure and because of the topic I have to say in terms of the just female empowerment that you can feel there when you are working with all those people. I don’t speak just about women and girls as such and their role, I also speak about the men who were supporting their integration and it was a wonderful cooperation that we’ve seen and the most recent examples of course are disturbing and I think extremely important for the global community to address them and to do everything that’s in our capacity to ensure that there isn’t a girl or women on this planet that doesn’t have basic human rights which is the right to education to start firstly and I hope that there is enough will first of all and capacity to do that and to react to make a change in that sense. We spoke quite a lot at this session and I think my colleagues are moving actually to this session to come about wonderful good practices that exist across the world in terms of supporting education for women and girls that we are not relying anymore on that conservative conservative thought and structure that the education needs to be given to us by, for example, the governmental structure, but that the multi-stakeholder model really plays a role in terms of setting up cooperation and implementation for supporting various forms of education. So colleagues from ISOC, for example, spoke quite a lot about wonderful capacity development initiatives that they are carrying out for educating women and girls in coding, in robotics, in overall ICT understanding. We from the IGF Secretariat also see capacity development as one of our mandated objectives and within our capacity we do everything we can to ensure that we have community engaged in internet governance with a special focus on women and girls, understanding that there are parts of the world where they are marginalized, where they are vulnerable, they don’t have the same opportunities as men would have. And in that sense, one of the greatest partners to us are the 175 national regional and youth IGFs. Those are wonderful examples of capacity development, just grassroots community efforts at a multi-stakeholder level directed to engaging communities, to fostering that partnerships, that sense of ownership of these types of processes, and most important, resulting in stronger policies that are supporting the use of our digital technologies. And then final point that I would like to say, at the level of the IGF we are also through our structures trying everything that we can to support gender parity being represented there. So I’ll give you one example, the heart of the IGF, especially in terms of the program, in terms of the agenda, so everything that the next four or five days we will be discussing is the result of the multi-stakeholder advisory group, the MAG. For years our goal has been to achieve gender parity across the 40 membership of the MAG. That has been a challenge and I am very proud to say that in the past couple of last couple of years, we have managed to achieve gender parity, meaning that we have 20 female, 20 male members represented on the MAG, which really makes a difference in terms of having the MAG that is really just more also considerate about the topics that we are discussing today. On this agenda in the next, so today in the next four days, there will be topics related to gender equality. All of them will result in concrete, what we call the Riyadh IGF messages. And I hope that will be our voice, collective voice to channel to the global community to make a change and to ensure that women and girls are better represented in our societies, because they are really one of the key pillars of the sustainable development. And that means just better life quality for all of us. So with that, I will have to conclude here. I have a third session which I have to run and I really apologize, but I will certainly catch up with the recording and with all of you, you will be here the next five days. I look forward to meeting you all.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you very much. Very much, Anya. That’s really appreciated. Quite lots of engagements you had. So you gave us time to fit in the session. So I’ll be jumping to the next speakers that introduce themselves and talk about their background. If the message from my colleague, that one or two of our speakers haven’t been joining. So, but we are waiting for them, Dr. Maria and Dr. Farzana. Okay, so I welcome Amrita. Yes, please. Amrita is one of our distinguished speakers. Thank you very much for joining. So before I go to Amrita, I will be giving her a time to. settle here. I’ll go to one of our youngest speakers, Ms. Jala Sahr-Mast, the floor is yours. Thank you, Khairul Jan. Can everybody hear me? Yeah. I want to ask my technical colleagues to make my colleague, the co-host, please. Okay. I know the people on Zoom can hear me. Can people in Riyadh hear me? Can I get a thumbs up or something, if you can hear me? She’s not audible. Okay. I request the technical team to let Jala speak, please. Hello? No? Okay. I’m just checking. Am I audible yet? Okay. I don’t think so. Please accept my apologies. Yeah. Can you please start? Hello? Hello? Do you hear me? You’re still not audible, unfortunately. Okay. Hello? Hello? Hello? Sound check. No? No. So, Leva, can you please speak, if we can hear you? No, we still can’t hear, so could you please speak so we can make sure you’re audible? I think it’s a problem or technical problem. Yeah. Yeah. Until the technical team solves this, let’s jump to the next speaker. So we’ll be jumping to the next speaker. I really welcome you, Amrita. I will give you a few minutes to introduce yourself and let the audience and everyone know you more. Everyone knows you. You’re a role model for a lot of people. So over to you.
Amrita Choudhury: Hi, everyone. My name is Amrita, and sorry for being late. I was in another session. Just to give you a brief, I am from India. I work for a civil society organization called CCUI. I’m currently also chairing the APR IGF, that’s the Asia Pacific Regional Internet Governance Forum. I am very closely associated with the Afghan IGF and the Afghan School of Internet Governance since their formation. I also go to Kabul once. They had invited me. Obviously, that was a different time, and it’s a different time today. They have seen how the young people, especially women from Afghanistan, have been participating in various discussions related to ICT, as well as in the Internet Governance Forum from that time. Obviously, as one of them, there were a few more who actually participated in a lot of ICT discussions. Okay. So I think we can hear. At this point of time, so in case you want to have them speak first, that could also be possible. I’m here to actually learn, and this is something which… I can’t hear you. I can’t hear you at this point of time. Okay, so I think this is an important topic, especially for people who want inclusion, who are championing for equal rights for everyone, to education, to participate, technology, obviously. So, I think this is important, but I will give it back to Gaurav. I think we’re trying to test the audience at this point. Thank you very much, Amrita. So, is the problem solved?
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: All our remote speakers and audience are available? Can you hear me? Let’s test with you. Can you please talk so we can make sure you’re audible? Hi, Soyul. Can you hear me? Unfortunately, I don’t have her voice. Can you hear me? Yeah, over the technical thing. Okay. Okay. Okay. Our apologies for the technical issues. We’ll be resuming our session in a few minutes until the technical team… Yeah, they won’t hear that. So we will continue with our on-site speakers. And as well as with the audience, to our audience members, we are really thrilled to have you with us today. Your participation is not only welcomed, but it is essential to the success of the current session discussion. Please feel free to jump in, engage, ask questions, and share your perspectives throughout the session. So our program is designed in a way to encourage dialogue and exchange of ideas. So I encourage everyone to take this opportunity to connect, learn, and grow together. Okay. So I have a question. Any of our speakers can maybe talk as per their experience, especially like Amrita has been to Afghanistan. She has been working with Afghan colleagues in different ways, and I’m sure Amrita has similar experience. Anyone from our audience can also jump in. So can anybody like, as per your experience, if you are connected with Afghans in Afghanistan, talk like what is the current situation regarding the Afghan women’s access to technology and education, given the recent restrictions, such as bans on education and limited Internet access? So I would… Like, anyway, you’re both welcome. Anyone of you can talk about it. So are you going first, Amrita? Thank you. OK. Over to you, Amrita.
Amrita Choudhury: Sadly, I think this is something which all of us would agree upon, is that the current situation is not at all great. The women cannot get access to education to their own. They don’t have their rights to even internet or ICT. It is not a very healthy situation, considering women play a critical role even in families to nurture their next generation. So it’s not only for their own personal benefit. Even children who study also need it. If they have educated mothers, well-educated, et cetera, it helps to nurture the family and bring them up or get about rights that are abused. If you will not allow a woman to study, will not allow a woman to even access technology, I think it’s a sad state of affairs. It will not even help any country, for that matter. Because 40%, I guess, would be women in that population. So 40% of people would be left with technology. Because the internet has become a thing of which every country is equal. So we continue speaking. So I think if you want also for the country to end it, you have to allow every gender to have equal access to education, ICT, and opportunities. It’s not a speaker here. Okay. How is it. So I think that is. So, I guess. There was some questions you had. What can be done. I think if we could have the online speakers participating, they know more than us. We are observers, but they have face to face. We are trying to do a lot of things. It would be really good if we could actually have those voices heard. Unfortunately, we are not being as inclusive as possible. In this session. So, yes, I guess that’s from me at this point of time, we did want to add some. I guess, I guess. Okay, I think I’ll pass it on to Omar to speak. Because we are not getting the people.
Omar Ansari: Thank you very much before I jump to the next speaker. I would like to invite. One of the speakers. If you could please. Okay. Okay. Can you please. So, we want to make sure you’re. Okay. Okay. Unfortunately, we are not able to hear you at all. It’s, it’s very, like, it’s breaking a lot. And it’s very low. So. So, I’m going to pass it on to the next speaker. Okay. Unfortunately, we are not able to hear you at all. It’s, it’s very, like, it’s breaking a lot. And it’s very low. So, we, we are unfortunately not able to hear you. So, I’m going to pass it on to the next speaker. Okay. But I’m happy that you can hear us. You’re very clear. I want to make sure with this with Sajjan and Zsola, are you experiencing the same as Leva said?
Neeti Biyani: Exactly the same. It’s difficult to hear you guys still.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: I would request my technical team to resolve this issue as well. So then we will be jumping to you guys. So welcome. Happy to have you here. So let’s give this opportunity to first introduce yourself and talk a little bit more about yourself and the question I raised about the current situation of women, despite the current restrictions on education and access to the Internet. Over to you. Hello. So I hope everybody can hear me.
Sonal Zaveri: Yes. So my name is Sonal Saveri and I’m the JSC advisor to the APNIC Foundation that Miti just talked about and the work that they do. So APNIC Foundation is deeply committed to its work on both gender equality and social inclusion. And so with my background in gender and evaluation, perhaps there is something that I could shed some light on what is happening in Afghanistan. I’ve had the opportunity to work on gender with a number of multilaterals in Afghanistan in the past. And perhaps one of the parallels that we could take for the situation that’s happening today was perhaps during the time of COVID when there was a moratorium on physical access to education. And what were some of the challenges that were faced and some of the solutions that we were able to find. And from the work that I’ve done in that country, what is critical to address is, of course, the connectivity. to making sure that the last mile is available, and of course, to have the devices and the digital learning in the languages that is suitable for education. But beyond that, it’s also very important to work on the social norms. So without addressing the social norms, what we found out at the uptake for the goals and for the curriculum that was provided was minimal. But there are ways in which to get around that. And some of those ways are to have a strategy to address the social norms within the families, within the communities, with religious leaders, with community elders. And once you’re able to do that, there is a lot of bike for girls and women to access education. And I think we also have to understand what is access. So access is not merely infrastructure. Access is also able to use the device. And often you will know that in many of these communities, and I think as in Afghanistan, in many of the situations in other countries where you have vulnerable populations, the problem is that a device is often a family device. It’s not necessarily a woman’s device. It’s not necessarily exclusively for women and girls for their education. So having understood that, that access to a device is very much connected to what are the cultural norms in that community, the sort of device that’s available. If you do have a device, it may not be a smartphone. And so you’re not able to take the complete benefit of whatever digital tools and curriculum that you’ve developed. So what we found is that community spaces, often some people call them safe spaces. So spaces where women and girls are able. to go and to learn is critically important. Otherwise, because of the social norms, the gender norms, their responsibilities for the care or domestic chores takes them away from a concerted effort to spend time on their education. So I think whether when we look at Afghanistan today in the development and conflict emergency nexus, we have lessons learned from many other countries around the world on how to use these digital tools so that we are able to promote education and ensure that all girls will benefit from that. So I’m happy to take questions if you would like to know more about the safe spaces and community engagement, but I’m going to stop here and see if we can get our online participants to talk a little bit more about the situation right now. Thank you. Thank you very much. You have pointed very tangible things, issues and problems currently like Afghan women are facing. So I will come again on this thing that you have mentioned. So before that, I’d like to make sure if our remote speakers are audible and also they can
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: hear us well. Over to Leymah first, because Leymah is my co-moderator and she’ll be doing the remote moderation. I’ll give the floor to Leymah to introduce herself and then give the floor to the next speaker. Over to you, Leymah.
Lima Madomi: Hi, Elayour, and hello, everyone. I don’t know if you can hear me, but unfortunately, we are struggling to hear you. But as long as you can hear me, I’ll go ahead and start speaking. But OK, thank you. So thank you so much. for joining us and my name is Lima Madhumi. I am a research and teaching assistant at the University of Geneva. My background is in technology. I have been working in technology for past almost 10 years. I was a fellow of the Internet Governance Forum. In addition to that, I have worked for a very long time in Afghanistan with Omar and with everyone there in different technological sections, especially for women in technology. So yeah, I’m really happy to be here and will be helping as a co-moderator. Please let me know if there is anything and I will be informing you about any messages in chat or anything out here. So Jala and Sajjah is here with us. Unfortunately Farzana will not be able to join us. I am hoping that Maria Bibi will be joining us soon. So back to you, Ghayr. Thank you very much, Lima. Happy to have you.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Okay, over to you, Farzana, to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about yourself. Over to you. Do you hear me? Very well. Okay. Hi, everyone. It’s nice to virtually meet you.
Zhala Sarmast: My name is Jala Sarmas. I’m based in Singapore. I currently work with a chemical technology slash manufacturing facility in Singapore and in Canada. My background is very heavily in the hard sciences, specifically chemistry and also media. I studied at Yale-NUS College where I earned my Bachelor of Science with honors. And aside from that, I am a musician. I’m an athlete with the Afghanistan’s National Women’s Cycling Team that was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2016. And then aside from all of these things, I work with a big group of Afghan students every year, especially those that try to get access to educational opportunities outside of Afghanistan. So that is something that is very close to my heart because it’s an experience that I’ve gone through of applying to universities to try to get a good education. And so that’s something that’s very important to me. And then with my work with media, we constantly try to work on digital learning campaigns and digital sort of educational platforms for Afghan women, Afghan youth, Afghan people in general in Afghanistan. So I’d be diving a little bit more deeper into that with the questions. Anyhow, that’s it in a nutshell. It’s very nice to meet all of you. Thank you very much. Very inspiring. Hope to see you soon. Thank you, Lema John. Thank you, Lema John. Good morning, everyone.
Sajia Yarmal: My name is Sajjah Yarmal and I’m based in Germany. I’m originally from Afghanistan. Unfortunately, a country where nowadays under the Taliban regime, being a woman feels like a crime. It’s true. Women in my country face endless restriction. We cannot speak freely, make our own decisions or even choose where to go or what to do. But here I stand grateful for the opportunity, at least in this moment and in this space to rise my voice and shed light on these critical issues facing Afghan women, especially their access to digital resources and opportunities for education in these difficult times. For me, actually, it doesn’t matter if you know my personal background. What matters is that we are gathered here to talk about the women of my country, women who are suffering every day and their voices are silent and their dreams are stolen. For these women, the only glamour of their lives is their freedom. hope is that we as a woman from all around the world stand united, discuss their struggles, propose solutions and also follow up with the international community to ensure that even not a single woman is silent, excluded or denied for her most basic rights. Thank you. So this is my introduction for today’s session. Thank you very much, Sajjah. Happy to have you in the panel.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: So my first question was regarding the current situation of Afghan women in access to technology and education, given the recent restrictions. So I would like to hear your views on this, because you’re Afghan and you have been probably experienced or connected with these friends there. So Sajjah, what’s your findings on the current situation of Afghan women in access to technology and education, considering the current restrictions on women?
Sajia Yarmal: Thank you for the question. Let me give you all some context in this regard. So since the Taliban took power in Afghanistan in August 2021, Afghanistan has been in a deep crisis, especially for women and girls. The Taliban’s policies have pushed women out of public life. Girls are banned from schools, women cannot go to university, they cannot work, even they cannot go to public parks are bad. So these restrictions are isolated somehow women and destroy the progress we worked so hard to achieve. The restrictions keep every day increasing, leaving women without hope or opportunities. For nearly three years now, Afghan women have been faced to stay at home like prisoners in the their own houses. In this difficult situation, access to digital tools and the internet has become a lifeline for many Afghan women. The internet can open doors to education, jobs and even a way to raise their voices. But political restrictions and Taliban policies have made these access even harder. This is increasing inequality and silencing women even more. I think one major problem is the Taliban’s control over the internet. In many places there is no internet at all and in the areas where there is internet, the Taliban censor content, making it impossible to access educational programs, news or global platforms. They also mentor online activities, so women fear being tracked or somehow punished for breaking the Taliban’s strict rules. As a result, women are not restricted physically, but also they are digitally trapped. I think the second problem or challenge is Afghanistan’s economic collapse. Smartphones, computers, the internet services are too expensive for most families, especially for women who depend on family members for financial support. This makes access even harder. When families have limited resources, they cannot prioritise, they cannot, they cannot. Sorry Ghajan, you hear me? Yes, yes, we can hear you. I’m hearing you guys very hard, but still I will continue. my presentation or my speech. Yeah, please continue. Honey out so as I mentioned when the families have a limited resources, they often prioritized by boys and men over women and girls for Internet access and devices. Uhm, the last but not least, now let’s focus on the biggest barriers which is education. We all know education is the key to using technology but Afghan girls are. A bandit from schools and universities. This means millions of Afghan women and girls cannot learn the basic skills needed to use technology and without schools and or higher education to lose the chance to connect with the digital wars and access the opportunities it offers. I think the impact of these restriction is devastating. Online education could give Afghan women hope and chance to learn. Even with the education bans platform that teaching coding languages or professional skills could help women improve their lives. But without access to the Internet or basic digital digital skills, women are left out and the cycle of poverty and dependence continues. Uhm? I have seen how powerful digital tools can be. I have seen women using the Internet to learn, connect with the world and fight for their rights. But I have also seen how the lack of Internet or access leaves women feeling hopeless and isolated. For Afghan woman, the digital world is not just a tool. I think it’s a lifeline. It gives women a chance to regain control of their lives in the society that has taken away their independence rights. The restrictions are not just rules. They they are somehow. tools of control to take away Afghan women’s dignity and future. So as a last point, what can we do for this situation? The situation is hard, of course, but it’s not impossible. There are steps that government organizations and individuals can take to help Afghan women access digital tools, like international organizations could or should work to provide safe and affordable internet for Afghan women or for Afghan people. Tools like VPN and encrypted communication can also help bypass censorship and surveillance. Also, online education programs designed for Afghan women can help them to build even with slow internet and international communities also. I think they must continue pursuing the Taliban to respect women’s rights, including their rights to education and the right to have access on internet or technology. And there is also a possibility that tech companies and governments can stand against censorship and mentoring the regulation, which nowadays we are experiencing in Afghanistan. So I think these are some points from my view which can help Afghan women to have access to the internet and to have opportunity to develop and work for their skills. I think if we focus on problems and propose solutions and follow up them, I think it will bring an opportunity for every one of us to solve the problem, especially women in Afghanistan are facing in Afghanistan. So these were my points, Gayoudran, if you could hear me and, or if you’re able to hear me, I will be here for other questions as well. But for this question, that was my point.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you. Thank you very much. You have pointed very critically issues regarding the current situation of Afghan women in terms of access to education and technology. So considering your points, I will jump to Joella, like how do such barriers, such as like internet blockages, the unreliable electricity, the gender-based inequalities impact Afghan women’s ability to connect to digital resources and participate in a scalable and good educational opportunities?
Neeti Biyani: Thank you, Gayoudran. I think me responding to this question is a little bit pointing out to the obvious because we’re constantly on a daily basis, we see how internet blockages, the fear of posting something online or accessing,
Zhala Sarmast: I’m not gonna really say accessing quality education because I think the blockages is, there are blockages more than there were three years ago, but I think it is still possible to access educational content in Afghanistan and we would need an IT or tech expert to shed some light on how, if that is the case, content can still be accessed. But I think it’s important to remember that even before the Taliban takeover, we had significant challenges when it came to access to digital devices and access to internet. And in the session the previous day for our guests that were not there, we looked at some statistics that were quite dramatic when we were looking at access to digital devices and the internet amongst male and female and sort of users across Afghanistan. So even though the number of users getting. access to internet and digital devices has been increasing over time. It is women’s access to digital devices and it has remained very, very drastic. If I remember this correctly, in the rural areas of Afghanistan, access of women to digital tech devices was 2% only and for the male it was somewhere near to I think 55% which shows like a significant difference. And of course this has become even more severe after the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. Now we have, if we don’t have internet blockages, there’s a very strong fear of resisting some of the policies that are in place such as the closure of schools and educational institutions. But not to mention that that is still resisted through many different kinds of responses, whether it’s art, whether it’s different sort of initiatives through media outlets, whatever. But I think that’s a separate question so I’m just going to focus on the impact of it for the moment. I think unreliable electricity is one issue that we’ve constantly struggled with in Afghanistan even as I was growing up. I think that frequent limited internet or like power blockages across Afghanistan, they limit Afghan people and specifically Afghan women’s access to online platforms that can offer of course education and skill training or career development. And then aside from that one thing that has always stood out to me working with students every year is gender-based inequalities. So I’m going to provide a more of a personal kind of response to this just so that we look at tangible examples of what I mean when I say gender-based inequalities. I think for me working with students there has always been more kind of focus on the boys and the men getting access to quality education and those opportunities than women. So I think if a family can afford the digital devices they would prefer it to provide that for the sons more than the daughters. not generalized, but that has been the case from my experience to a very major extent. And then the same when it comes to working, for instance, when I work on applications for colleges with different students, our Afghan sons, I think it’s relatively easier for them to try to get access to those education where women would have to juggle in a lot of like house chores and school and like all the other things that they have. So there are lots of things I think that can fall into that umbrella of gender-based inequalities, but I think you kind of get my point. So I’ll wrap it up here. I’ll look forward to the next question. Thank you very much, Ella, for sharing your insights.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: So over to you, Amrita. I have a question here, like how can target digital literacy and a scale building programs be designed to empower Afghan women while considering the cultural and logistical challenges they face that we have heard from Sajid Jahan and from Jola Jahan. So what’s your point of view? How can this issue has been tackled?
Amrita Choudhury: I think designing of the programs have to be such that it is in the local language. That forms of the models which they’re using is much more like, so that it can also work in a job, possibility of having download options. And I think what’s on the bench is very good. Certain things that this is not. Sorry, the audio is not on. is not too good. I think trying to get the community by is going to be beneficial. It is not going to harm their natural interest, religious interest, or political interest for that matter. And have the courses designed in such a way that they are not used to the other language. Thank you. So, Oliver, you said you have many good examples. Could you please share some examples of successful initiatives or programs that have empowered Afghan women through technology or providing access to education, health care, or economic opportunity? So, before I give the mic to you, I would like to remind the very dear audience that you are most welcome to raise your hands if you have any questions. But if you have any ideas or opinions to share with us, you are most welcome to raise your hand and we will be giving the opportunity for you as well. So, consider yourself as a key pillar of this discussion. Thank you very much. I hope everyone can hear me. It’s good? Great. So, what I wanted to share, I think I’d like to reiterate that gender rights are human rights and that has to be of what we believe. about more successful programs, we have to understand. Now, better, I’ll put it up like this, and please raise your hand if you can’t hear me at any point. I’m trying to get my train of thought back. What I wanted to say that whenever we talk about gender, we cannot forget two ideas that are behind gender. One of them, as we mentioned, it is deeply ingrained. And so male entitlement means that men and boys have more opportunities and better access. So, what would, okay, for a moment, sit over there, shall I sit there? May I speak again? Is this clear? Okay. So, what I want, no. Okay. All right. So, I’m moving. Let me know when you can hear me the best. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I’m happy to stand and talk. Is this great? Fantastic. I’ll talk here. So what I wanted to say is that we have to understand that gender is about gender relations. And unless we acknowledge that there is something called male entitlement, we are not going to go far. Second, we have to understand that there are systems and structures, institutional structures of family and community that are, in a sense, skewed against acknowledging opportunities for women and girls. So unless we address both of them, it’s going to be very difficult to have gender equality or gender access to education. And we heard examples, real life examples, of how boys could access, but girls could not. And the whole problem of domestic responsibilities and care, which hinder girls and women, even when they have access to devices, even when they have the digital tools, they will not be able to make full use of them because of these problems. Their time is divided. But what I wanted to talk about, a very important aspect, is mobility. There is so much restriction on the mobility of women, where they go, what they do. And that is one of the opportunities of having internet and the digital access in order to be able to go beyond it. Now, as you mentioned, one of the problems is to have the connectivity. And in order for women to manage the connectivity, to have the space and the time to spend on themselves, and to have that education, we have found that having community spaces, community engagement, and safe spaces for girls to come to provides the best opportunity for them to learn. What does that mean? The community buy-in. of religious leaders, of elders, of men, in the community, in the family, is absolutely essential. Having got that, having got that trust and confidence, you are able to provide the space for women and girls to come to these spaces to learn. And you know, the change that happens is quite spectacular in the sense that girls and women understand that there is a whole world outside, their little homes and their little communities that they are working in, and that they can learn and achieve a great deal. Many of them, because of what they’ve learned, have been able to help their families economically as well. Now these opportunities are then appreciated, but we need to understand that we have to place some foundational blocks within this social norm space, the gender equal space, in order for digital access and internet connectivity. It cannot happen without it, and that’s what I wanted to stress. There’s one more thing I want to say before I give up the mic, is that, you know, there are many ways of intervening in this. So we talk about the micro spaces, so the community spaces. We talk a little bit about the mezzo, so talking about, you know, hopefully getting some sort of a buy-in from the government or other systems and institutions, religious institutions, very, very important to do so. But what about the global community? I think we have a tremendous responsibility for forums such as this, others, to advocate for women’s rights to education, for Afghan women and what they’re facing too. Is the voice loud enough? Are we doing enough? And it’s not just women having to, you know, talk about it, and I’m really happy to see that we have men and women in this room advocating for Afghan women’s rights, but we need to have a much louder voice in the international forums that we go to and who do have a cloud. in order to do that.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you. Thank you very much, Sonal. Well, thank you for sharing your experience on this kind of solution, so building the community-based spaces for women. I’d like to, yes, sure, sure, sure. You can’t hear? Or you have a? Perfect, perfect. So we have a question from one of our audience to one of our remote speaker, right? Over to you. I forgot the lady from Afghanistan’s name, but my question is directed to her.
Audience: My name is Barata Mea from South Africa, and I work with women and girls, and after you gave your speech, I thought of one question I wanted to find out. So once women are empowered and you’ve done what you’ve done, what’s next for a woman in Afghanistan? Are they able to start a business? Are they able to get a job? What does that empowerment means? What it means to have a woman’s voice besides the security issues? From a family point of view, does it change the scenario for them internally in their families? Do they get the respect or what? Can I ask who the question is addressed to? Is it me or is it a person speaking? Turn to Jala, or whoever is willing to answer. Wait, was that directed to me?
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: You can give the space to both of you. Yeah, let’s give the space to you first, Jala. You can share your experience. Oh, I’m sorry. I thought the question was kind of addressed to me. Anyhow. Okay. Okay. Okay, Saidiya. So the question refers to Saidiya.
Sajia Yarmal: Yeah, Saidiya, go ahead. Thank you, Leymah John, and thanks for asking the questions. I think this is a good point. Let me explain this from my own experience. I’m about 30 years old and growing up in Afghanistan. So it means before the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, the women had the opportunity to grow up in Afghanistan in a peaceful environment with lots of opportunities, which we worked for that, as I mentioned in my speech before. We went to school, we went to university, we got a job, and we start even our own businesses. So these were the opportunities which we had in the previous or ex-government in the past 20-30 years. Beside that, I think we should look at the rights of women, as same as the rights of human rights. I mean, if you’re talking about women and the rights which they have, and it doesn’t matter if it’s in Afghanistan, or if it’s in another countries or society, so we have to respect these rights. It doesn’t matter if they really achieve something big, the progress is important. For me as a young woman in Afghanistan, which had experience to work there, to get education there, that was an opportunity for me to work for myself, for my family, and for my society. We had the opportunities to get involved in many activities in Afghanistan, national and international communities which we had in Afghanistan, and also the platforms which we experienced them in Afghanistan. So we not only brought these opportunities to Afghanistan and used these opportunities as well. And not only me, most of the population of Afghanistan is a young generation, so not only men, not only women, also men benefit from these opportunities which we had in Afghanistan. So I think Jalajan could also add her point of view in this regard, but I think that was an opportunity for all women in Afghanistan, and if we ignore those opportunities, I think also in the future we cannot really work on Afghan women and the opportunities which we could bring in Afghanistan. Jalajan, it’s over to you.
Lima Madomi: Thank you, Sajjadjan, and thanks for the question. To be honest, I find the question a little bit interesting. I don’t exactly know what you mean when you say, so when women are empowered, what’s next? I think for the past 50 to 70 years in Afghanistan, our focus has been to get women empowered, to give women education, to give women financial independence, to give women literacy. So I think once you empower women, then women are treated as an equal human being in the society, which I think is the ultimate goal. That is why we strive for education, like I said, economic inclusion, political inclusion, social inclusion, etc. So I’m, again, not sure exactly what you mean by that when you say, so when women are empowered, or what’s next? But I think when women are empowered, then they make academic contributions, then they make economic contributions, they make political contributions, they have financial independence, which is a big deal in the world nowadays because it actually stops women from getting access to so many things because they’re not financially independent. I hope that my response is precise enough to address the question, but if it’s still not clear, I’d be happy to respond in more detail.
Amrita Choudhury: I’ll try to answer it in a different way. India also has a very patriarchal system. Of course, it’s not as extreme as it is in Afghanistan. But there are some experiences. And I’ll just give you some analogies. I have a friend of mine. She did her chartered accountancy. She came from a business family where women used to not study after their class 10, which is 16 years. And then she got into a job. There was a lot of opposition in her family. She was the first in her house to do so. But when they saw her doing economically well, earning money in her own terms, and getting respect in the society, all her other family members, the children in the extended family, the girls, got a chance to study, to get into jobs, to choose their own kind of careers, and even decide when they want to get married. Do remember, in India, we still have a lot of arranged marriages where women have to marry within a particular age. So people see with education, with employability, those things change. And when money starts coming into families, the equations also change many times. That’s hard facts, which has been seen. Similarly, many of the women, it’s not necessary for them to even go for a job or even go to something. But they will be able to teach the kids at home what is right, what is wrong, what is needed as in a progressive society. I’m not saying wearing Western clothes, but having an open mind. Education brings that. That’s why we talk about education, why reading is important. An illiterate mother may not be able to push the children to study all that much. But if you get an interest towards it, you would be helping that family also to uplift. If you can work, you should have a right what you want. what someone else, that’s a fundamental thing. But I think it helps to uplift the family also. For example, for medical health, many times in remote places or many places where women cannot even go out of the house, if you have some basic knowledge, you will not get into a myth of medical sciences. For example, many times they don’t want to go to doctors. They want to go to quacks. But if you have education, you will know what it means to even go to a doctor. So these may be small things, but they help even a family, not only the women. And I think Neeti wants to add something.
Neeti Biyani: Thanks, Amrita. I think the point that we’re trying to advocate here, I want to flip it over its head for one minute and maybe ask the question, all of us are trying to talk about empowering Afghan women. Can we pause and ask, who and what can Afghan women and girls empower in turn? Yes. So I think the question that we need to ask is, who or what can Afghan women empower? There are so many socioeconomic, cultural outcomes that Afghan women, the resilient women and girls that they are in this society, in this region of the world, the sort of economic outcomes they can help achieve, the sort of taxes that they can pay if they have the financial opportunities and the financial ability, culturally as well, to move around in the economy. The socioeconomic. outcomes that they can that they can help unlock the sort of future generations that they can bring up that will in turn then contribute to society. So I think we need to flip this narrative a little bit on its head and ask women empower only and only if they just allow the space to be who they want to be to speak how they want to speak to do exactly what they want to do. I think everyone stands to gain from that right. Absolutely everyone, the government, men, boys, women themselves society as a whole. Organizations which are helping to do that also should be encouraged for example today. Many organizations even internationally who want to do something within the country is not allowed, cannot, you know, fund those kind of projects, etc. These are happening on which can help the country. So I think these kind of should be allowed to work or even network operators group or even I don’t know if APNIC Foundation can actually put in money in Afghanistan to help in many of those social uplifting programs, etc. I think the international community and perhaps community at large could look at those things that what are the tools which are needed for empowerment, different types of empowerment. One is rights, one is civic rights, etc. Human rights, etc. But in terms of uplifting digital technologies, making life easier through technology even communicating. I think those are important things which we also need to think of. You have any question or you want to clarify something? Okay. I think what can Afghanistan women do to empower the world and other women for me is how we should be looking at it and not purely because we will learn something. I think it’s to open the world for the girls who are being empowered and not knowing what’s outside for them, especially the internet world. Because obviously I know there’s lots of programs, I read a lot about Afghanistan, that helps with coding. There’s a woman who worked with us who was teaching women how to code. And what those girls were offering on the job market, the skills were meticulous. I learned so many things from just listening to what they were talking about. And I’m going to give another example. The women in Gaza, they are offering a mentorship program to some of my girls in South Africa. They are in a very difficult situation, but they still have time when they do get that limited access to internet to contribute and teach coding to other girls. But for them, it’s just to know what’s the outside world. It’s how do you contribute? Because the main thing here, we can go anywhere we want in the world, unless we address what she talked about, which is male entitlement. Nobody is empowered. As much as we want to say we are empowered as women, our question is to address what she’s talking about, which is male entitlement. Any woman who is empowered has to face a male entitlement. But if women from all over the world come together, especially in an online space, and empower each other, it’s going to give us more power and more voice to break these women’s rights that are taken away from women.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you very much. We have another one of our audience here. Okay, over to you. Can you hand over a mic to her? Burhan, can you help me to pass the mic, please? You’re on. Can you hear me? Excellent.
Audience: My name is Shauna Hoffman, and I’m from the USA, and I’m an AI expert. I have been for a little over 25 years. The question that I have, Saf, thank you for being brave. Thank you for being here today, all of you. The women empowerment, I love what you just said about that. I would love to make that more tangible. How can those of us outside of Afghanistan help empower the local women? What is it that you need? I know there’s rules, there’s specific boundaries, we would say, for the local women. But what can we do? You’d mentioned cell phones. Can we collect cell phones, let’s say, from the United States and ship them over? Could we provide some internet access? Is it more funds to get the internet access? What can we do? Then also, we’re actually going on a tour in Afghanistan in October. One of the tour groups mentioned there are 300 businesses ran by women that we are going to be seeing during that tour. I’d love to understand a little bit more about that and the women’s rights. Question number 1 is, what tangibly can we do for you? If I bring cell phones over with me, can we pass them out? Is that helpful? But then the second step is, what are women’s rights locally for those who are running businesses and trying to continue on with what they had prior to three years ago?
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you very much. Is the question open to any speaker who can tackle this or specifically?
Amrita Choudhury: Okay. Amrita has some comments on this. I am audible. Yeah. So, India government has a scheme wherein if a girl in certain states, if a girl in her plus 12, does above a particular mark, she gets a laptop. They got a laptop. But then the laptop was given to their brothers. So that also happens. So you may be giving the cell phone. Who’s going to recharge it? Who will have access to it? So those things are also some things you have to think of. Where will they recharge if there is no electricity? So those things also should be thought. It’s just not giving it over, but how do you continue it? I’m not saying it’s not a bad idea, but you will have to look at the entire chain of events. And that actually brings up a very good point.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: I know in Kenya, when we purchased cell phones for those who are local, we also provided them the cell phone, the solar service. So what would be, for those who are in Afghanistan or have been recently, what would be something that you could say, here’s something you really can do that’s tangible that would actually help us? Jolajan, do you want to tackle this question?
Neeti Biyani: Yes, definitely. I’m sorry, Jolajan. No, go ahead, Libajan. I can answer you. Yeah, sure.
Lima Madomi: Yeah, I’m so sorry. I just wanted to point out one very important thing. I’m so sorry for breaking in like this. It’s about when we talk about empowerment and when we talk about the tangible help to Afghanistan, there is one very important thing that we are actually, I think, forgetting, and that’s the political situation of Afghanistan. If we are providing all these help, it could be a potential life risk for many women that are living out there. So when we are doing these things, we should also consider those things. And we should also think about how we could do some of these potential support that we are providing or the empowerment that we are doing in a sense that it does not threaten their life. I think one of the most important things will be that instead of providing them with some of these helps, it will be good that if we could provide them with some educational opportunities. If there are, for example, schools or universities, or if there are some mentorship and some of these programs that could help them to be empowered and to help themselves, that could be something more valuable. Because some of these other things, of course, they are enormously valuable, but they could also be a threat to their life. They could also be… So in certain situations, they are working like head and they are not like a lot of the government and political, no one is aware that they are working. So when we are helping them in these things, we are actually bringing them up to the front. And that could be a potential risk for their lives and for their families’ lives. So I think it’s more about how we could empower them in terms of education and in terms of giving them some skills and opportunities that they could help themselves. That could be more valuable. That’s my opinion. Thank you.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Thank you very much. I have to say thank you for bringing that up. That’s an extremely good point, because we wouldn’t want to have anything negative. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. Over to you, Zsala.
Zhala Sarmast: Thank you, Limogen, so much for sharing that. I think those are all great points and great that we have an AI expert in the room with us. Yeah, I think I find that working with initiatives on the ground has been the most helpful. So there are initiatives on the ground that work within different areas and landscapes in Afghanistan. And yes, it’s dangerous. Yes, it’s extremely risky. But to be able to make a little bit of progress, we’ve constantly, growing up, had to break rules. in Afghanistan. So that’s a given, unfortunately. And another, I think, very tangible thing that I think can make a lot of impact is not just working with women, actually, working with male of the families and just religious scholars. So you’ll have to work with people that are of value, that are respected, that are listened to across Afghanistan. So for us, whether it’s working on different digital literacy campaign or whether it’s working with students on their college application forms, et cetera, et cetera, it’s not just working with the group of students themselves, but it’s kind of like at the same time working with their decision makers of the families or their brothers and fathers, et cetera. So I think that’s just one thing that has been kind of critical to me in my work and need to be considered. So yeah, I think lots of awareness, keeping in mind that Afghanistan is in the midst of a humanitarian crisis. So there are lots of other priorities now that a lot of people are focusing on. So if those are kind of addressed, then it will open doors and give the people space to think about some of the other things that are needed, such as education and access to financial kind of opportunities, et cetera. Yeah, very much, Jala. You’ll find it very good.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: So as per your experience on the ground, to combine a few questions or the views raised by the audience and also the thing raised by Niti, like what and who can support the Afghan women based in Afghanistan? And now also one of our audience said like from Nigeria or from any African country. So like the women in Gaza, despite the challenges they have, they’re providing mentorship to the African women. But considering the current situation in Afghanistan, which like women are totally banned to go, I mean, for work or for education or to be in a male-dominant society, so how the Afghan women there leverage the Internet and digital resources to overcome these challenges, to build meaningful opportunities for themselves and for their communities? So this question could be answered by Joelle as well, because she recently pointed a few points relevant, and as well as Sunal, you gave some examples. So how impactful those solutions are or were to empower women to have access to education, despite the current situation we are experiencing right now? So after this question, I would like to remind the APNIC Foundation colleagues that one of the points raised by Amrita, that how can APNIC Foundation put money into the Afghan community to empower? So I think you already do these two digital leaps. I would like to have your view on this later, after Sunal shares her insights on this, and after Sunal, we’ll go to
Zhala Sarmast: Joelle. Over to you. I think I’m going to get… Okay, I’m going to get up just to make sure that everybody can hear me, and we don’t have a break. And I think I really like the question that you raised, what can you do that’s tangible? Often the solutions are quite simple, and they depend upon people, and what people can do for each other. So before I say that, I’d say that one of the goals that we must… remember when we are talking about women in very fragile situations is that we cannot do any harm. So I think the principle of do no harm must be the first principle that we follow when we are thinking about any sort of solutions for women in education, for economic empowerment and so on. So having said that, I think we’ve talked about getting buy-in from the community, from the decision-makers, from men who are in power, but I also think we should not forget that women too have power. And how do we do that? So in this case it’s not just the power of one, because that’s often difficult. You may become a target, but what you can do is have peer-to-peer. That’s possible. Can you set up systems so that girls and women can support each other? So having peer-to-peer strategies in your programs, in your solutions, is I think absolutely important. The other area is the collective. When there is a voice of many women that comes together, not one person is targeted, but collectively, collectively, they can advocate for what they want. So if you have 300 women entrepreneurs, that is a force to reckon with. How can you create a peer-to-peer support? How can you create a collective for them? I’ve done some evaluations for ESCAP in the region, and that’s one of the lessons that we have learned. How do we support women, and how can women support each other? And I think that is something we should not forget. Thank you.
Sajia Yarmal: Jayla-jan, over to you. Thank you, Khair-jan. Yeah, I agree that designing targeted digital literacy programs across Afghanistan, it requires a a lot of different layers of considerations to deliver something impactful. But I think to address the challenge, again, it is very broad, but I think programs must be culturally sensitive and community-oriented that would allow for the engaging of stakeholders. This can include families and religious leaders and community leaders, because this will build a lot of trust and encourage participation. I think in most of the work that I’ve done in Afghanistan through media outlets, whether it’s been with tech platforms or it’s been with UN agencies, one thing that we’ve constantly tried to integrate is the inclusion of religious leaders and community leaders because they’re listened to and they can actually make a tangible impact. So kind of like inclusion of those stakeholders, I think to me is an important strategy that can make quite a big impact. Again, I think the inclusion of male allies, like I said before, such as the brothers and fathers and husbands, it’s also very, very crucial to encourage their support because they can actually really make an impact in kind of paving the way and opening the way for their daughters and wives and sisters to get access to a lot of opportunities. So I think aside from that, given the logistical limitations, it’s of course another concern, programs should focus on the flexible and accessible delivery methods. What, how we’re trying to, I’m sorry, I’m trying to like bring in real life examples of how we’re trying to tackle with these challenges because I think that they might be helpful. So how we’re trying to do this is not just delivering whether it’s animated content or whatever educational kind of content online, but also using brochures, for instance, or banners across the countryside and in the rural areas where people don’t necessarily have access to digital devices or internet or. or electricity that much. So this, but taking into consideration that I think logistical limitations is of course another big issue. Security is of course the biggest consideration, but we have to keep in mind that a lot of people in Afghanistan right now, they’re putting their lives at risk, but they are working with underground schools. They are working with initiatives inside their houses. So if they can take that much risk to allow other girls to get access to educational opportunities, we can take our part in contributing to that, whether it’s books, whether it’s however kind of content that can be helpful to them. So I think, yeah, there are different kinds of things that we can take into consideration, keeping in mind the logistical, the cultural, and other issues to be able to make tangible impact. But I think it’s quite broad, so I can’t fit in everything into one response. Yeah, thank you very much, Sajidjan. You mentioned about the censorship, right? And then also access of women to the educational material.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: And now Joella pointed out about the involving of the religious scholars, and as well as providing content, kind of brochures or books or flyers, whatsoever, to Afghan women in order to support them to have access to education. So, like you said about the censorship, it’s not just, when we say censorship, it doesn’t mean only about the internet. So in the offline world, of course, in fact, it could ban anyone, especially the women in Afghanistan, to have access to those tangible assets, including the brochure, the books. So do you think it will be, I mean, impactful or that it works to empower women to have access to education, and as well as have access to the content, which supports their access to education?
Sajia Yarmal: shared was very powerful, but let’s do not forget the current situation in Afghanistan, because when we are proposing the solutions, we should think about the situation, how can we provide these solutions, and how can we implement this solution which we are proposing, or which we are talking about, even with international communities. Because if there is a solution for Afghan women regarding empowering women in education, etc., we should keep in mind that these activities will be affected by the Taliban’s government, the groups which have the power right now in Afghanistan, because without the allowance from these groups, we cannot provide these solutions for Afghan women living in Afghanistan. We can do something online, when we ensure that they have access to the internet, they have access to the computer, to the laptops, and they have the opportunities to use these online opportunities, but when we are not sure that they have these opportunities, we cannot also be sure about the result of the solution which we are providing them, or the opportunity which we are giving to Afghan women. You mentioned the censorship and the special censorship in Afghanistan during this situation in Afghanistan. That’s true. The censorship is quite large in Afghanistan right now. They are trying to censor the contents, not only the contents, but also the news agencies and the reporters, which they are working currently in Afghanistan, even in this hard situation. So these restrictions make the situation even harder for the people of Afghanistan, especially women in Afghanistan. And if we do not focus making the current group or government in Afghanistan responsible to answer for all the restrictions or all the rights which they are denying as a human rights or as a woman rights in Afghanistan or for women in Afghanistan, it won’t work and it won’t be as impactful as we are talking about or as we are expecting from the international community. So my point is to let’s focus and let’s put pressure on the Taliban or on the group which they are under power right now in Afghanistan, and let’s make them responsible to accept women really as part of the society, to accept and to give them opportunity to grow up. Women in Afghanistan do not need support of anyone else when they have the opportunity or when the atmosphere is ready for them to grow up, when there is opportunity and when there is a good atmosphere to grow up so they can do it by themselves. Of course, the international community can help for funding for some awareness project or development project, but still the women are able in Afghanistan or capable to work by themselves and to achieve their goals, whatever they have. The international community can only make the Taliban responsible for their acts, for denying the rights of women, for denying the human rights in Afghanistan. Thank you, Ercan. Sajjad, I would like to jump to Niti on the global or international community perspective. I’m not touching on the political side, but in terms of technical capabilities, the mandate of the international community to empower women to have access to education, like Aynia mentioned. So specifically for the Afghan women, what is your point of view? How can the international community support Afghan women to have access to education and as well as access to the technology and internet? So what’s your point of view being outside of Afghanistan and working with international
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: organizations, specifically like the APNIC Foundation? Before I said, like Amrita, the APNIC Foundation’s role in supporting the education in Afghanistan and you’re currently running the Digital Late South Asia project. So we would like to hear your insights and views on this. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Sonal Zaveri: So as the APNIC Foundation, of course, it’s wonderful that we’re being able to see as many, you know, community oriented, as many sort of initiatives across the board, whether it’s with women and girls, whether it’s with participants and, you know, increasing representation in the technical community, etc. But I believe if you’re talking about… Afghan women and girls need to have. Piecemeal efforts, of course, are not going to be enough. We need systemic, structural changes, and we need to have a whole-of-society approach to that. For different players to come in, offer what they can, what they’re good at, what their expertise is, I think we’ll need to work in lockstep. We’ll need to work with one another to be able to understand what capabilities can be contributed, how these pieces fit in. To my colleague who mentioned, would it be helpful to bring in devices? Sure. But then what about the normative attitudes and beliefs that would actually prevent the use of such devices? I don’t think that infrastructure on its own would mean anything until and unless we’re also structurally then working alongside government. As much as we may not want to, but we do need to work with government to make sure that women are allowed to be participants in the economy. Because to my previous point as well, I think that benefits everyone. That not just benefits women and girls and gender diverse people, but it also benefits men, boys, government, society, et cetera. Sorry, we need to be advocating for equal participation in society, in the economy. Because I feel like the human rights argument, even though we believe in it, even though we want to advocate in favor of human rights, gender rights, et cetera. But I feel like practically, as is the case with my country, we seem to have lost the plot there. We seem to have lost that. We have. I mean, we have lost that plot there. If governments need to be partnered with. if we want to partner with governments, the narrative and the belief system have to be grounded in human rights. Absolutely. But we also need to be sure that we’re offering governments, companies, private sector players, technical community, civil society, what they need. The government wants to see a thriving economy. Sure. So let’s invite women in, unlock their economic potential, see how they can participate in the economy. And, you know, go from there. We perhaps need to sort of ground this and understand this from a gap. If we want to partner with different stakeholders, is it that we can play to their narrative without losing ours? So basically, what we want, I’m sure, I’m sure that that’s not going to be a simple, you know, endeavor. That’s not going to be a simple, it’s quite challenging, right, to work with the government that we have in Afghanistan at the moment. But if we’re looking at systemic structural changes that go beyond, you know, individual efforts or community efforts, not that I’m discounting those at all. We need to be, we need to understand how we can get stakeholders to really, you know, buy into this agenda. Because the first question every stakeholder asks is what’s in it for me? You know, why is it that I should support this vision? So controversial thought, but I’ll leave it at that.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: Yeah, thank you very much. Great people, great thoughts. Umar, do you want to add something as you’re leading the project of this digital leap and about your work in Afghanistan? Burhan, can you help me pass this mic, please? Thank you. Very much. Can you hear me? well. So I’ll introduce myself. I’m Omar Ansari, leading a project called Digital Leap South
Omar Ansari: Asia with the APNIC Foundation in Brisbane. The project aims to develop the capacity of the network engineers to help them learn new skills. With that, we do a lot of community building, bringing people together so they can share experiences and learn from each other. We support the local national IGFs, the network operator groups, and other similar gatherings and platforms. So Digital Leap South Asia, when we started the first cohort in 2023, we had nine women from Afghanistan who were network engineers. Here in 2024, we have only four women from Afghanistan. So this means the number is decreasing. The first year, we had more women working in network engineering, for example. They were trained in ICT in the past, but today, since the university has closed, women cannot go to school beyond grade six. It means that they’re gradually reducing in number. I’m the father of four girls, and it was very hard for me to see my son not being able to go to school in Afghanistan. So I had to move out, and I was forced to move out. One of my girls, age nine, was running a YouTube channel. It was called The Workshop, where you’re making robots and little moving devices. She just got admitted at a TAFE course on robotics. and she was very excited about the certification program that she will be doing in January. Afghan women has, in Afghan, men and women both, in general, they have a lot of talent. They lived in a society, you know, that was affected by war for decades, but they have learned how to be resilient. And the resilience that was shown by the Afghan Internet community in the past couple of years, you know, from falling down to raising up again, it was quite a journey. Lima is one of our participants from last year. She’s a DLSA, Digital Leap South Asian alumna, and she’s moderating this session. And she’s been leading many other efforts, like School on Internet Governance of Afghanistan. So if they’re provided with an opportunity, they can excel. They can not only contribute to the local socioeconomic development and be active in their own societies and have good lives and contribute to their families, but they can also be participants of the global development processes. So that is… But definitely, it’s not something that Afghans would be able to do it alone. As suggested by the panel, we need international friends and allies so that we can do it together. It’s an issue for all of us to address, I think. APNIC Foundation has some really good plans for the future of the region, the APNIC region. We cover 56 economies across Asia-Pacific. And the APNIC, which is a region… but then there is an APNIC Foundation.
Speaker: So our CEO is here and he’s very excited about this session and we have four more sessions coming up. So I’ll probably pass. Mar, this is audible. First, I’d just like to acknowledge all the speakers we had. You know, we talked about getting people here. Some of them couldn’t make it here due to some of these logistics issues we’ve had. So to your point earlier, something I just want to point out, you know, the world had a bit of moving on to something else. The problems in Afghanistan have an, it’s probably getting worse in some ways. It’s a credit to my team that they’ve been able to pull off what they’ve done in Afghanistan and parts of South Asia over the last couple of years. A simple thing as even sending money, it’s not just these other structural issues we’re talking about, but the international financial system doesn’t even allow us to send money to Afghanistan. My colleagues, the few that we’ve managed to get to Saudi Arabia for this event, the trials and tribulations my team went, done, those of us who lived in advanced economy, we have it easy. But just even getting money to get on a plane, it’s not that easy for some of our colleagues in some parts of the world. So there, I think, needs to be, you know, one, we should not forget that when there is conflict and issues that arise in certain countries, and then there will sort of next great conflict, you know, what happens to those that we’ve forgotten. So one of the reasons we wanted to host this session here was to ensure that, you know, we don’t forget that there’s still. is an issue in Afghanistan that women are still suffering. The three women on the screen you see there that couldn’t make it to Riyadh, they are doing, even though they’re not long. And I’ve got my colleagues here from, you know, Gayoor is here from Afghanistan, Omar, of course, who’s been a solid supporter, and in fact, he runs the program at the APNIC Foundation. So yes, help is needed. Thanks, you are able to support us. Please, we’d love to see how we could work and do much, much more. But of course, we have to do it taking into account and there are certain issues that we can’t just parachute in and do stuff and leave. That doesn’t quite work now that it’s at scale. So I see the lady is holding up the sign, which means I should shut up. So Gayoor, maybe I’ll hand back to you. We still have a lot of work to do in South Asia, in Afghanistan, but some other economies as well. We have our new strategy, and just in formulation at the moment. So in the coming months, let’s talk about what we’re doing and perhaps come partner in the difference we make. And one thing I like to say, we are more about action, not words. So what we do is around long narratives and speeches. So I’ll stop there. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
Abdul Ghayoor Bawary: A big round of applause to all our speakers, audience, the panelists, the remote moderators, speakers, everyone. Thank you very much. It was very pleasure to having you all and I really appreciate you have dedicated your precious time to attend the session and share your views and insights. It was really good to have you all. I think we are done with our time. So thank you very much and thanks to the- Foundation for organizing this beautiful session. At the end, I would request for a group photo. And thank you. Bye. I think we have someone. She has something to say. I will pass the mic. Hello, everyone. Sorry. I’m Mary from Timor-Leste. And in this room, the discussion is about the women in Afghanistan. But please allow me to also speak about women in Timor-Leste who face some similar challenges to Afghan women. Women in Afghanistan face some challenges similar to those in Timor-Leste. But our situation is different, as we are a democratic country, where men and women have equal rights. However, women in Timor-Leste still face challenges in accessing education, technology, and job opportunities, especially in rural areas. The switch program, which has been running for three years in Timor-Leste, has greatly supported women like me in ICT. I kindly request to the APNI Foundation to continue this program in Timor-Leste, as it has made a significant difference in our lives. I also ask the APNI Foundation to help women in Timor-Leste further by implementing more programs like switch. Thank you. turn cameras on. We have you in the background in a group photo. Thank you.
