How to Project Europe’s Power / Davos 2025

Summary

This panel discussion focused on how Europe can project its economic and geopolitical power in the current global landscape. The conversation explored various aspects of European strategic interdependence, competitiveness, and unity.

EU Commissioner Maros Sefcovic emphasized the importance of European unity and highlighted the increasing interest from global partners in striking free trade agreements with the EU. He stressed the need for Europe to focus on future technologies and critical raw materials to maintain its competitive edge.

Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan discussed his country’s efforts to move closer to the EU while maintaining balanced relationships with regional powers. He emphasized the importance of regional peace and connectivity for economic development.

Ilham Kadri, representing the European chemical industry, called for regulatory simplification, cohesion in the single market, and the need for European industrial champions to compete globally. She stressed the importance of innovation and addressing inequalities to maintain Europe’s competitiveness.

Patrick Pouyanné of TotalEnergies emphasized the need for European unity and integration, particularly in the energy sector. He argued for the creation of European champions in various industries and called for better protection of European industries in the face of global competition.

The discussion highlighted the challenges Europe faces in balancing its green agenda with industrial competitiveness, and the need to adapt to changing global dynamics, particularly in relation to the US and China. The panelists agreed on the importance of European unity, integration, and strategic autonomy in projecting power on the global stage.

Keypoints

Major discussion points:

– Europe’s economic power and how to project it globally

– The importance of European unity and integration for competitiveness

– Balancing green/sustainability goals with industrial competitiveness

– The need for European “champions” and a more unified single market

– Managing relationships with major powers like the US and China

Overall purpose:

The goal was to explore how Europe can strengthen its economic and geopolitical power on the global stage, particularly through greater unity, industrial competitiveness, and strategic partnerships.

Tone:

The tone was largely pragmatic and solution-oriented, with speakers acknowledging challenges but focusing on concrete steps Europe could take to improve its position. There was an undercurrent of urgency, with participants emphasizing that Europe needs to act decisively to remain competitive globally. The tone became more forceful when discussing the need to protect European industry and create “champions” to compete internationally.

Speakers

– Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Dean of the Paris School of International Affairs at Sciences Po

– Ilham Kadri: CEO of Ciensco (formerly Solvay), President of the European chemicals industry

– Maros Sefcovic: European Commissioner for Trade and Economic Security

РPatrick Pouyann̩: CEO of TotalEnergies

– Nikol Pashinyan: Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia

Additional speakers:

– None identified

Expanded Summary: Europe’s Economic and Geopolitical Power Projection

This panel discussion, featuring prominent European leaders and industry executives, explored how Europe can project its economic and geopolitical power in the current global landscape. The conversation delved into various aspects of European strategic interdependence, competitiveness, and unity, highlighting both challenges and opportunities for the continent.

European Unity and Integration

A central theme throughout the discussion was the critical importance of European unity and integration. Maros Sefcovic, European Commissioner for Trade and Economic Security, emphasised this point, stating, “When we are united there is nothing we cannot do together and we always arrive at best solutions if Europe is united.” This sentiment was echoed by other speakers, including Ilham Kadri, CEO of Solvay and President of the European chemicals industry, and Patrick Pouyanné, CEO of TotalEnergies.

The panellists agreed that greater unity and integration are essential for enhancing Europe’s competitiveness on the global stage. This includes creating a more cohesive single market, particularly in strategic value chains such as electrification, defence, and semiconductors. Pouyanné advocated for a more radical integration of energy policies and markets across EU member states to optimise investments and improve competitiveness in the energy sector.

Competitiveness and Industrial Policy

The discussion highlighted the need to improve Europe’s competitiveness through various means. Sefcovic pointed out that Europe is already the biggest trading bloc with high standards and consumer power. Kadri stressed the importance of simplifying regulations to enhance competitiveness, particularly for small and medium-sized enterprises. She provided a striking example, stating, “I’m hiring more people in the legal and compliance departments than in my innovation departments, okay? So Europe and the chemical industry is extremely regulated. We like regulation, but now it’s a burden, specifically for the small and medium-sized companies who cannot handle it, right?”

Kadri also emphasized the need for a true single market in Europe, particularly in areas like energy and digital services. She highlighted the importance of the chemical industry to Europe’s economy and called for a capital union to support innovation and competitiveness.

Pouyanné strongly advocated for the creation of European industrial champions to compete globally. He argued that current competition rules hinder the development of such champions in key industries like digital, banking, and energy. This perspective suggests a potential tension between fostering European champions and maintaining internal market competition.

Trade and International Partnerships

The panel discussed Europe’s position in global trade and its relationships with major powers. Sefcovic noted an increased interest from international partners in striking free trade agreements with the EU. He emphasised the importance of negotiating fairly with the United States while standing firm with China. Sefcovic also highlighted the deep interdependence between the EU and US economies, stressing the need for careful negotiations, especially in light of potential changes in US administration.

Pouyanné raised concerns about the impact of the US Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) on European competitiveness, calling for a balanced approach in EU-US relations.

Nikol Pashinyan, Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia, offered a unique perspective on balancing relationships with various global powers. He discussed Armenia’s efforts to move closer to the EU while maintaining balanced relationships with regional powers. Pashinyan highlighted the “Crossroads of Peace” project, aimed at fostering regional cooperation and economic development. He also mentioned ongoing negotiations for a visa liberalization agreement with the EU and the support Armenia receives through the European Peace Facility and the European monitoring mission.

Energy and Sustainability

The discussion touched upon the challenges of balancing Europe’s green agenda with industrial competitiveness. Pouyanné highlighted this tension, stating, “We need to reconcile the objective and the green industry. I will take one example. We want all to produce sustainable aviation fuel. You have a requirement to increase sustainable aviation fuels. Today, I’m investing in plants in Europe to provide biorefineries to produce this stuff. But I see imports of stuff coming from China at a cost which is much lower than what I can produce in Europe. I’m not protected.”

This example underscored the need to protect European green industries from unfair competition while maintaining open trade policies. Both Pouyanné and Kadri emphasised the importance of investing in renewable energy and sustainable technologies, but also called for measures to ensure that the EU’s green agenda aligns with and supports industrial competitiveness.

Challenges and Unresolved Issues

Despite the general consensus on many issues, several challenges and unresolved issues emerged from the discussion:

1. The specific mechanisms for creating European industrial champions while maintaining healthy competition within the EU.

2. Detailed plans for integrating energy policies across EU member states.

3. Concrete steps to protect European industries from unfair competition without violating international trade rules.

4. Strategies for negotiating with a potentially more aggressive US administration.

5. How to balance national interests with broader European priorities, particularly for countries seeking closer ties or membership in the EU.

6. Addressing inequalities and focusing on people’s needs while pursuing economic growth and competitiveness.

Conclusion

The discussion highlighted the multifaceted challenges facing Europe in projecting its power globally. While there was broad agreement on the need for greater European unity, integration, and competitiveness, differences emerged in the specific approaches to achieve these goals. The overall tone was one of cautious optimism, acknowledging the challenges while also identifying opportunities for Europe to strengthen its global position.

The panellists emphasised the need for concrete actions, including simplifying regulations, creating a true single market, integrating energy policies, protecting European industries (particularly in green sectors), and maintaining balanced international relationships. As Sefcovic concluded, “We will be ready to negotiate, and I believe that we will find good solutions. But the answer of the European strength, and I agree with you, Arantxa, with Patrick, and with Ilham, that strength of Europe was traditional in our economy, in our industry. We’ve been very competitive.”

This discussion set the stage for further policy development and strategic planning to enhance Europe’s economic and geopolitical power on the global stage.

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Good morning, and welcome to This session devoted to how can Europe project its power. And we are going to be talking economic power, but inevitably economic power today is also geopolitical power. In order to do that, I have a great panelist which together will help us unpack these vast issues. Many of Europe’s economic challenges from accessing critical raw materials to protecting and promoting the enormous wealth of its industrial capacity, to ending war in the continent, to decarbonating its energy, to extending the network of trade alliances around the world, they cannot be done without a more strategic integration of all the strands of foreign economic policy. So this is the conversation today. How do we integrate all these strands? Where are the pluses? Where are the risks? And how can Europe project this power that it has? We haven’t heard a lot about this power in this week in Davos, but this power is there. So this is what we will try to unpack in this session. My name is Arantxa Gonzalez. I’m the Dean of the Paris School of International Affairs in Sciences Po. Let me begin the conversation with Commissioner Maros Sefcovic. Maros, you’ve been in this job for over 15 years. You’ve been, you are the longest serving European commissioner. You’ve seen the ups and the downs. You are now at the heart of this projection of Europe’s foreign economic capacities. We’ve been together, trade, economic security. Customs. Customs, very important, the back office of international trade. So Maros, seen from… where you are, what’s the direction of travel from the European Union to expand its trade and investment power?

Maros Sefcovic: Of course we go through quite a complicated period in the world and I think we heard a lot of criticism about Europe over the last couple of days, but at the same time we all know that there are many countries who would trade the place with us. So let’s be not so downbeat about Europe. We are the biggest trading bloc with the highest social standards, with enormous power of our consumers and with a huge potential in the skills and research and innovation. And of course we are also a unique entity where 27 member states are working together. As you said, there are the moments where we are more up, where we are a little bit down. What I would say it’s very important to tell our audience, I would say this morning, that the European leaders got the message. We need to be much more competitive, we need to cut the red tape and of course we need to focus much more attention to the, I would say, economies of the future, to the technologies of the future. If you want to be carbon neutral, if you want to remain, I would say, a very important actor on the international global scene. And I have to say that in my new role of Trade and Economic Security Commissioner in the 1st of December, what I have seen is this, I would say, unparalleled increase of the interest of our partners in striking free trade agreements. There is clearly the momentum with our partners who seize in Europe, partner who is transparent, predictable, who respects the rule of law, who respects the agreement and who wants to work on the mutual advantageous positions. We are not a partner who wants to extract and export, we want to come, invest, build, create the value added on the spot and share. the shared results of our common work. So what has happened since we started in this new mandate, we managed to conclude difficult negotiations with our Mercosur partners, Mexico, with the country we are currently in, Switzerland, and we are working very hard to advance negotiations with India, Malaysia, I just had the meeting with both trade ministers the last week, and I have, if you would see my diary here in Davos, so it’s all GCC countries, many countries from Southeast Asia, and I see that this is kind of a calling card, this is the business card of Europe, that there is huge interest in the biggest trading bloc in what Europe represents in this very fragmented and tumultuous world to be a solid partner, and I think that we of course have to take it into our advantage. So I think where we clearly need to do more, we have to focus our energy on being strong in the technologies of the future, how to make sure that we do not outsource the development, that we made them in Europe, that we will have critical raw materials, which we need for them, that we will also have access to the critical technologies like the chips, because we learned the lessons, for example, from, I would say, this very unfortunate COVID period, where we realized that we probably outsourced much of the strategic production abroad and we’ve been really missing in the moment when the supply chain has been not able to perform. And then, of course, we have to be very much focused how to fine-tune all our systems from the education through the research and innovation to be faster, not to have only start-ups, but the scale-ups, and we need to adjust our competition policy, and I think my new colleague, Teresa Rivera, is working just about that. And one point to close my introductory remarks, we are clearly now going through the… A period where I would say all traditional approaches to negotiations, to partnerships would be tested and therefore I open every meeting with my colleagues, fellow ministers in the EU and I end every single meeting with a clear call for European unity. When we are united there is nothing we cannot do together and we always arrive at best solutions if Europe is united and that’s the feeling what I get from all recent European Councils. If you’re talking about the future, strategic autonomy, strategic independence and all these very important areas, that’s the message we feel we’re getting from the EU leaders who are absolutely determined to increase competitiveness and the position of Europe in the world.

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Thank you. What we hear from you is strategic interdependence in Europe means two things, unity and alliances with other countries centred around trade and investment. Let me move now to the Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia. Prime Minister, of course Europe is more than the European Union, it’s wider, it’s made of countries that want to become members of the European Union, like is the case of Armenia, it’s made also of other countries that don’t want to join the European Union like Switzerland or Norway but still want closer ties with the European Union, probably because they feel maybe outside is a bit cold. So you have recently tabled a bill to initiate the accession negotiations with the European Union. Tell us a little bit what this discussion means for a country like Armenia.

Nikol Pashinyan: Yes, thank you very much. In reality there was an initiative by the civil society and they presented the draft law on the starting of the process of accession of Armenia to the European Union and our government endorsed that and there is a very high probability that our parliament would adopt that law. That would mean legally that we start the process of getting more and more closer to the European Union. Why do we want to be closer to the European Union? Because we are a democracy. When you are a democracy you want to be closer or in the mainstream of democracy because otherwise it would be illogical. Now we work very closely with the European Union and to be honest during the last years the tremendous changes and improvements happened in our relations with the European Union. For example, we just started the negotiations on visa liberalization agreement which was in our agenda for long years but we weren’t able to start even the negotiations and I hope that we will be able to end it and sign it as soon as possible. Now Armenia is included in the program of European peace facility which is also very important. We have now European monitoring mission, civilian mission in our country which is also very important. We are in the process of implementation of comprehensive and enhanced partnership agreement with the European Union and we are working very closely. ties are concerned. You know, of course, we want to be closer to European Union economically as well. But from the other side, we don’t want to – we want to be closer in terms of economy in our regional countries as well. Because, unfortunately, from beginning of our independence, we were kind of in economic isolation because our borders with Turkey and Turkey and Azerbaijan were and are closed. And so to make change not only in our region but globally in terms of overcoming this supply chain shocks, we put on the table our proposal of our project of Crossroads of Peace, which I hope is familiar to you. And it is about the – making our regional transportation communication more effective and to create new transport communications not only with Azerbaijan but with Turkey as well, to deepen our cooperation with Iran, with Georgia. And it is also about the European Union because if this – when this project will be implemented, we will have new chain routes through Armenia for European Union. And, you know, it isn’t just matter of economy. It is also very important security. factor, because you just mentioned interdependence as a very important factor for overall stability and security. But of course, this project will work in case or when we will be able to create sustainable peace with Azerbaijan, which unfortunately isn’t the case now. We are working. Usually, and it is very important now, we need to be able to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey and we are working on this topic as well. Usually, people are asking whether I’m optimistic or pessimistic on this matter. I should say that I’m not optimistic and nor pessimistic. I’m pragmatic. I just understand that we need to work until the task is solved. The main and I think most important thing, not to be derailed from peace agenda. We need to concentrate it on the goal and to continue to work without giving up, without being frustrated. But in this case, in that way, of course, we need to have support

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: of international community and I hope that this support will be delivered. Thank you, Prime Minister. I mean, you’re reminding me of what my former boss in the European Commission, Jacques Delors, used to say. You don’t have to choose between being an optimist or a pessimist. You have to choose to be activist. What you’ve put on the table in this concept of strategic interdependence is the enlargement I mentioned, enlargement of the European Union, but also the security and stability of the wider region to the east of Europe. That matters a lot also for projecting Europe’s power. Let me now move to Ilham Qadri. Ilham Qadri, you are the CEO of what is now known as Ciensco. People know the old name, Solvay, but you’re also the president of the European chemicals industry. So, I want to ask you, you’ve been at the heart of the efforts to look at what Europe needs to do to improve its competitiveness, the so-called Draghi report, the efforts at integrating more the European market, the Leta report. What do you need Europe to do now to improve the competitiveness of the European industry that is our powerhouse?

Ilham Kadri: So, first of all, thank you for having me. I must say I’m an optimist because since the beginning of Davos, competitiveness is back in the agenda. With Ms. President Ursula von der Leyen, Mr. Commissioner, there was not one meeting where people didn’t talk about competitiveness, so that’s number one. I think to talk about the power of Europe is about having a strong economy, and a strong economy means a strong industry, and a strong industry means a strong chemical industry, and obviously I am representing today the chemical industry. A year ago, in February, we gathered with 73 global CEOs representing the chemical industry around Ursula von der Leyen, and we handed over the Antwerp Declaration with 10 points around how to restore competitiveness and trust with the private sector. Meanwhile, we are happy because the Draghi’s report, Leta’s report, they include those 10 points. So, first of all, I think there is a big need of regulatory simplification. So happy to hear that there is now a target to simplify, to move the red tapes. Let me give you an example. In the chemical industry, since I, actually I moved to Europe back in 2019, there was 14,000 pages of regulation published just for the chemical industry. I’m hiring more people in the legal and compliance departments than in my innovation departments, okay? So Europe and the chemical industry is extremely regulated. We like regulation, but now it’s a burden, specifically for the small and medium-sized companies who cannot handle it, right? And when we get into the soup of alphabets of reporting, CSRD, CSSS, taxonomy, et cetera, we see that our small and medium-sized companies cannot deal with, and therefore, we are destroying the fabric of the industry, the chemical industry in Europe. So we are calling to really simplify, simplify, simplify. We are calling it to move in those red tapes, right? Which will mean efficiency, more investments, right? Because as an industry, as a business person, I need transparency and predictability. The second thing in the regulatory, we need cohesion. You talked about Delors. Delors vision of single markets. There is no single market today in Europe. We need this single market. We need it from the demand, because when I put a plant in France, or in Italy, or in Belgium, it’s a disservice of the whole European demand. I need that demand. We need to create that demand around clean technologies, which the Green Deal has been pushing us to really work on, right? We need cohesion in the chemical management, for example, framework, right? We need that single market, and we need this badly in terms of demand, in terms of cohesion, in terms of. flow of goods between, so we need unity in a way, not uniformity, we know Europe is different culture, but we need unity and probably this 28 regime, you know, above and beyond the 20 member of states in some strategic value chains. And I’m talking about electrification, I’m talking about defense, I’m talking about semiconductors. There is no EV in the world, there will be no semiconductor without a strong chemical industry. And to give you another data point, the chemical industry in Europe lost 11% market share in the past 15 years. Europe was number one, now it’s number two. For China, who gained 9%, so it’s number one, 44% of the production output is coming from China and it will become two-thirds of the world production by 2030. And obviously when I say cohesion, it’s a level playing field. We like competition, I mean, I’ve been 30 years in the industry, competition is good, it fuels innovation, et cetera, but we need a level playing field, right? When the good players are doing the right thing in Europe, we need that level playing field against imports. The last one is about regulatory recognition. When you do all of this, where is the recognition? And recognition, don’t put me wrong, it’s not about subsidies and money, we have enough. I think what I’m talking about is that capital union, which Ms. President talked about this and I think it’s in the heart of the discussion of the new EU commission members. So we need that capital union, we need that liquidity in Europe, we need to promote those investments, right? Against very strong USA and state economy in China. So all in all, I think I’m not gonna talk about energy, Patrick is gonna do it better than me because without energy we are nobody, so we need that affordability and availability. and resilience. But definitely to finish with, it’s about innovation. Europe has been the land of innovation. The chemical industry started in Europe. We have skills, we have talents, we have breakthrough innovation at the service of sustainability and carbon neutrality. So we need to promote them. We need demand, starting with public procurements. Because, you know, when you talk about sustainable solution, we need premium pricing as well. So where it is, we need that support from the authorities. So we cannot do it alone. That’s private-public partnership at the service of the industry in Europe is so critical. And I will finish with people. I think we cannot manage all of this without tackling inequalities. Remember what’s happening in France, the yellow vest. I care about the end of the month, not the end of the world, right? So that’s inequality, taking care about people. And Europe is 450 million consumers. Europe is ingenuity, you know? The best talents in our companies are in Europe, actually, right? So I think we need now to really focus

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: on people and people and people as well. Thank you very much, Ilham. So European strategic interdependence means strengthening, from your point of view, the competitiveness of the European industry, with a host of suggestions that you’ve tabled, and focusing more on people. Let me now move to Patrick Pouyanné, CEO of Total Energy. He’s a global player, one of the major global players in the energy sector. A lot of what we’ve heard would not be possible without affordable, secure, reliable energy sources. And combining this with the green agenda that Europe has placed at the heart of its competitive model. So can we do it in Europe? What do we need to do to get there? Reliable, affordable, and sustainable energy.

Patrick Pouyanné: That’s the triangle that we are targeting, all of us. And again, the topic today is very important. Yes, of course, total, Europe is a big power, 450 million consumers. It’s fundamental today because we are in a world where you have the US, and US with Donald Trump will be even a strong force. We have China, and in the middle, we are there, and there is only one way, which was already mentioned, and that is unity, we need to express it by unity. If we are together, which means that Europe is above our national interests, then we have a chance to find a way. And I strongly believe in the values of Europe. I think we have this legacy, and we are somewhere a lighthouse in the planet, we should not lose it. And this is a debate today, in fact, of do we combine our green agenda, our will to go further with other parts of the world, which are maybe going slower than us, but which are also more powerful somewhere. And the power of Europe will go for its economy. The difficulty we face, for me, is the result of a construction of Europe centered around consumers, fundamentally. Consumers have been for 50 years, we have protected the consumers, and somewhere, very strangely, at the expense of our own industries, you know? And that’s something fundamental, because in the energy field, coming to energy, we require now huge capital investments, to transform, it’s an incredible journey we have in front. So we need requirements, we require capital. And we need to optimize this capital. This is two conditions for me. More capital requires European champions. And it’s true for energy, it’s true for digital, it’s true for banking. And there is something we did not manage to do until now, even if I am one of the European champion, some in France consider I am a French champion, I’m more than that, I’m a global company. I consider I’m in my mission statement. We have security of supply to Europe and after you can war I Dedicated my year 2022 to supply gas to Europe Mobilizing all what I could to supply LNG to Europe to bring new LNG floating units So I consider we are part of it, but we need European champions and why do today in digital? We don’t have it why in banking the largest bank in Europe 80 billion dollar market cap It’s nothing compared to the larger and in these words of Giants look to what happened So there is something I’m calling really if you want a power in Europe You need to revisit completely the way we apply these competition rules It’s not a matter to protect. We protect the European consumers if we have champions in Europe I can tell you the best way because we will be more efficient. It’s true in energy. It’s ruined digital It’s win in finance this something if this need to reset From from the all European leaders. The second thing for energy is integration If I want to deploy all the trillions billions of dollars I have to integrate and I’m reading a Sentence of the letter report the more the EU advanced towards the carbonized energy system so greater is a need for market integration and it is difficulty because in fact, we all agree we have a Climate European climate policy, but the energy is not It’s not unified. It’s impossible to be honest to put into action Pragmatically a climate agenda if you are not integrated the energy or policies and today it’s considered at a national level It can’t be as his own strategy or policy Of course security of supply is important, but we can ensure the security of supply of your by the way after the Ukrainian War what happens to for the gas in Europe? We have to mobilize all the entry points of a gas in Europe creating entry points in Germany France Gas is liquid, you know gas is going through the networks. And so that means that thinking to that is fundamental because if you want to find again back a competitiveness of electricity in particular, energy provided in Europe, if you think it in 27, 28, 30 countries, you split the efficiency of your capital allocation. We need to think about it. I was thinking to plan great investments. If you do it at the national level, or if you do it at Brussels only in interconnections, these data is inefficient. We need to solve it. If we need to invest, some countries wants to invest in nuclear, okay, let’s invest in nuclear, but it’s for the benefit of everybody. Of the wind, it’s obvious for me, but when my teams are coming to me to invest in solar plants in Sweden, I say, we are dreaming, what do we do? But the solar should be in Spain. I mean, and the wind in the north of Germany is quite obvious to everybody for common sense. People in the street, but today each country wants to have his own agenda. And that’s something integration is fundamental. The only way to come back to competitiveness of our energy in Europe is the integration to optimize the allocation. We need to think together and not to go. So sometimes I’m surprised the leaders in Europe, when you have a European Council, they all agree Europe is first, and then back to national interest. I know that there is politically a debate in each of our country, but if we want power of Europe, it’s going through integration and unity. That’s a strong message. And champions, again, when I’m in front of a commissioner, there is another thing. You know, today we have done an incredible progressive agenda with the Green Deal. And Total Energies have engaged my company in a transformation, I can tell you. I’m spending 30% of my investments in renewables and electricity. Nobody would have thought, I would not have been in five years ago. Next year, in 25, 10% of the energy produced will be electricity, green electricity, 10%. I’m a very large company, it’s quite a big step. But I need to be, the agenda is not really protecting the European industry, the green agenda. We need to reconcile the objective and the green industry. I will take one example. We want all to produce sustainable aviation fuel. You have a requirement to increase sustainable aviation fuels. Today, I’m investing in plants in Europe to provide biorefineries to produce this stuff. But I see imports of stuff coming from China at a cost which is much lower than what I can produce in Europe. I’m not protected. So, if you want a power industry in Europe, we need now to reconcile the green agenda and to protect our industry. The US have done it under Biden. The IRA was blessed by everybody, but during the IRA it was super powerful. Solar panels, I’m a big investor in solar in the US. I’m obliged to use, if I want to have the IRA fiscal incentive, I’m obliged to take solar panels manufacturers in the US. They have reshored all their solar panels industry. In Europe, I was investing in solar panels 10 years ago. I lost everything completely open. So, I think power in Europe means an industry in Europe. You cannot make, it’s a huge opportunity that you are offering us with this Green Deal. But at least these products, if we want to, we should recognize that manufacturing all that in Europe, because energy is a little more expensive, wages and salaries are a little more expensive because we have a social model that we are proud of. We must find a way to protect it. And that means giving, for me, a preference to European products. How do we give a preference to European products? So, the US are doing, the Chinese are doing it. The Chinese, you know, they have created this powerful green industry because they have a huge market. And during 10 years, they were in advance on us. So, what I would like to see is really… really acting, not just pitch about it, find a way. And then we have European companies who are able to, I can produce stuff in my biorefineries, but if suddenly I discover that you can import from green stuff from China, which I would like to be sure is the same standards, I cannot fight against it. And why do we import stuff from China, just to circle it? Because the airline companies, aviation, is complaining that stuff are too expensive. And so again, because we give the preference to consumers. So the real debate if one powerful industry in Europe is to arbitrate, yes, consumers are important, but the jobs, the industries, and the purchasing power of consumer is coming from us. And so we cannot, so it’s what I hope, I know that there will be a zero, I don’t know if you call it, next communication of the crossword, I hope we will see that, but it’s time to wake up together and to do it and not just to speak.

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Thank you, that was clear. It was unity and scale through integration that these are two powerful messages. We have only 10 minutes left. So we are going to, I want to go very shortly around the table and I want to start with you, Maros. The US has been mentioned, finally. Are you thinking of or would you need to change in the trade policy of the EU to face a more aggressive Trump administration?

Maros Sefcovic: I think, of course, this would be, I would say the topic definitely for this year, how to, I would say, set up this new relationship with US. And first and foremost, we want to talk to our American partners. I think that we have to keep our cool here because I think the best negotiations are done in the room, not through the media. I think if I look at… the overall figures. We had the chance to discuss it yesterday. It’s true that we have surplus in trade in goods, but U.S. has quite significant surplus in services. So if you take both, and I think in every trade conversations, both goods and services are always taken together. So we are talking about the trade deficit of around 50 billion euros. And if you compare it with the overall trade volume of 1.6 trillion euros, I think this is putting it to the perspective that we should be able to solve this problem very, very quickly. That would be, of course, my intention, and I think that we should also bear in mind the fact that we have huge interdependencies. I mean, there is 5 trillion of mutual investments, mutual assets. By the way, two-thirds of American assets in Europe. And every year, almost 300 billion euros is flowing from Europe, from our pension funds, from our savings accounts to invest in American companies. So this just proves that this is a mutually very advantageous relationship. I call it the artery of the global trade. So we should be very careful how we play with that, because the fact that this represents almost 40% of the GDP in trade, it just shows the kind of shock effect it might have on the whole world. And therefore, we want to be very careful how to address these things. We will be ready to negotiate, and I believe that we will find good solutions. But the answer of the European strength, and I agree with you, Arantxa, with Patrick, and with Ilham, that strength of Europe was traditional in our economy, in our industry. We’ve been very competitive. We’ve been good traders, and indeed, over the last year, we, I think, didn’t factor in these transformational processes on the global scale. So we’re always looking at the mergers and acquisition policies from the perspective of the size of European economy, and we somehow neglected a little bit the fact that if you are a big company, I mean, the world is much bigger market, and simply you have to be strong, not only in Europe, but also on the global market, and therefore, if you look at the number of the European companies in the top 100 from, let’s say, 2010 and 2024, I mean, the numbers are much smaller now, and I think this is kind of reflected in the mood which we feel that we need to do better. So I think we need to negotiate fairly with US. We have to be very clear towards China that we will fight tooth and nail for our industry, that we will not allow photovoltaic story to happen again, where our innovation was just completely destroyed by the state-sponsored overcapacities of China, and that simply we cannot pay the Chinese jobs by the sacrificing European jobs, and I think this has to be very, very well understood. It would not be easy to achieve, but I think this moment we are at the time where I think we will have to see the bigger balancings of the global economy, global trade, and we have to do our utmost that Europe will be one of the principal players in this debate.

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Thank you, Prime Minister. The moment we’re living in is a geopolitical one where every player will want others to take sides, and you will be one of those that everyone will say, you have to be with me, and if you’re not with me, you’re against me. And there is the US, and obviously there is China, in your neighborhood, there are other players too, there is Russia, there is the Gulf countries, there is Europe. So how will you navigate this?

Nikol Pashinyan: You know, that’s why we decided to adopt a balanced and balancing foreign policy, which means that we will try to create a balance between our different relations with European Union, with in our relations with Russia, with our regional powers, very important our relations with Iran. And I mentioned already, we’re trying to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey, we’re trying to reach to a peace deal with Azerbaijan. And of course, it isn’t easy. But from the other side, I don’t think it is impossible. Because it could seem kind of strange. But really, we are suspiciously transparent with all our international partners in our intentions. We’re sharing with all partners what we are doing with other partners. You mentioned our decision to get closer to European Union. But we are trying very intensively to share our position with Iran. We’re trying to share very actively our position in Russia and with all our partners. Because, you know, after all, Armenia is independent country. And in these challenging times. Of course, there are many, many challenges and many threats, but from the other side, it is a huge time of changes, definitely and obviously, the times of changes bring huge threats, but from the other side, huge opportunities emerge and we are trying to manage threats and to use opportunities and that is, I think, the only pragmatic way to go forward, but not forgetting about balances, because to lose balance could bring very heavy consequences for security, for stability, not only in terms of a country, but in terms of region and in terms of global stability, because when we say and we pose that task to be as interdependent as is possible, but from the other side, in this situation, any instability in any region of world could start a chain process worldwide, even in the small countries, small regions, etc. And that’s why I think to be balanced and not to forget about this task, balancing in a daily basis, it is the most important thing, I think.

Arancha Gonzalez Laya: Thank you very much. We wish we had more time, but we’ve come to the end of this session. Let me take one takeaway from this discussion and I’m going to be quoting Patrick Pouyanné. I hope he allows me to use it. use his intellectual property, we’ve heard there is an EU brand of capitalism with values. And we want this EU brand of capitalism with values. But we need two things to make this be the model that others like, reform it to make the European Union economically stronger, and strengthen alliances with neighbors and beyond to build our own resilience. Thank you very much. Let me thank Prime Minister of Armenia, Nikol Pashinyan. Let me thank EU Commissioner Maro Sevkovic, Ilham Kadri, Patrick Pouyanné. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you to all of those watching. Hope to see you soon. Thank you.

Agreement Points

Need for European unity and integration

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
– Ilham Kadri
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Call for European unity to increase competitiveness

Need for a single European market

Integration of European energy policies and markets

summary

The speakers agree on the importance of European unity and integration to enhance competitiveness, create a single market, and integrate energy policies.

Improving Europe’s competitiveness

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
– Ilham Kadri
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Europe as the biggest trading bloc with high standards and consumer power

Simplifying regulations to improve competitiveness

Creating European industrial champions

summary

The speakers emphasize the need to enhance Europe’s competitiveness through various means, including leveraging its existing strengths, simplifying regulations, and creating industrial champions.

Similar Viewpoints

Both speakers advocate for protecting European industries from unfair international competition, particularly in the context of green industries and sustainable technologies.

speakers

– Ilham Kadri
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Need for level playing field in international trade

Protecting European green industries from unfair competition

Both speakers emphasize the importance of international partnerships and trade agreements, while also considering the balance between economic interests and other factors like sustainability and security.

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Increased interest from partners in free trade agreements with EU

Balancing affordability, security and sustainability in energy

Unexpected Consensus

Balancing national and European interests

speakers

– Nikol Pashinyan
– Maros Sefcovic

arguments

Balanced foreign policy approach for smaller countries

Call for European unity to increase competitiveness

explanation

Despite representing different perspectives (EU and non-EU), both speakers emphasize the importance of balancing national interests with broader European priorities, showing an unexpected alignment on the need for unity and cooperation.

Overall Assessment

Summary

The main areas of agreement include the need for European unity and integration, improving competitiveness, protecting European industries, and balancing national interests with broader European priorities.

Consensus level

There is a moderate to high level of consensus among the speakers on key issues. This consensus suggests a shared vision for strengthening Europe’s economic power and global position, which could potentially lead to more coordinated efforts in policy-making and economic strategies across the EU and neighboring countries.

Different Viewpoints

Approach to international trade and competition

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Importance of negotiating fairly with US and standing firm with China

Protecting European green industries from unfair competition

summary

While Sefcovic emphasizes fair negotiations with the US and standing firm against China, Pouyanné advocates for more aggressive protection of European industries, particularly in the green sector.

Unexpected Differences

Approach to energy policy integration

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Call for European unity to increase competitiveness

Integration of European energy policies and markets

explanation

While both speakers advocate for European unity, Pouyanné unexpectedly pushes for a more radical integration of energy policies and markets, which goes beyond Sefcovic’s general call for unity.

Overall Assessment

summary

The main areas of disagreement revolve around the degree of protection for European industries, the approach to international trade, and the extent of integration in European policies, particularly in the energy sector.

difference_level

The level of disagreement is moderate. While speakers generally agree on the need to strengthen Europe’s economic power and competitiveness, they differ on specific strategies and the degree of protectionism and integration required. These differences could impact the development of a unified European economic strategy.

Partial Agreements

Both speakers agree on the need to improve European competitiveness, but Kadri focuses on simplifying regulations, while Pouyanné emphasizes creating large European industrial champions.

speakers

– Ilham Kadri
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Simplifying regulations to improve competitiveness

Creating European industrial champions

Similar Viewpoints

Both speakers advocate for protecting European industries from unfair international competition, particularly in the context of green industries and sustainable technologies.

speakers

– Ilham Kadri
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Need for level playing field in international trade

Protecting European green industries from unfair competition

Both speakers emphasize the importance of international partnerships and trade agreements, while also considering the balance between economic interests and other factors like sustainability and security.

speakers

– Maros Sefcovic
РPatrick Pouyann̩

arguments

Increased interest from partners in free trade agreements with EU

Balancing affordability, security and sustainability in energy

Key Takeaways

Europe needs to strengthen its economic power and competitiveness through strategic integration of foreign economic policy and regulatory simplification

The EU should focus on creating European industrial champions and integrating energy policies across member states

Balancing trade relationships with the US and China while protecting European industries is crucial

European unity and integration are essential for projecting power globally

Smaller countries like Armenia are pursuing balanced foreign policies to navigate complex geopolitical landscapes

Resolutions and Action Items

Simplify and reduce regulations, especially for small and medium-sized companies

Work towards creating a true single European market

Integrate energy policies across EU member states to optimize investments and improve competitiveness

Protect European green industries from unfair international competition

Continue negotiations on free trade agreements with various global partners

Unresolved Issues

Specific mechanisms to create European industrial champions while maintaining competition

Detailed plans for integrating energy policies across EU member states

Concrete steps to protect European industries without violating international trade rules

How to balance national interests with broader European priorities

Strategies for negotiating with a potentially more aggressive US administration

Suggested Compromises

Balancing consumer protection with the need for strong European industries

Finding a middle ground between national energy strategies and EU-wide integration

Pursuing a balanced foreign policy approach for smaller countries to maintain relationships with multiple global powers

When we are united there is nothing we cannot do together and we always arrive at best solutions if Europe is united

speaker

Maros Sefcovic

reason

This comment emphasizes the critical importance of European unity in addressing challenges and projecting power globally.

impact

It set the tone for much of the subsequent discussion, with other speakers echoing the need for unity and integration across various policy areas.

We need to concentrate it on the goal and to continue to work without giving up, without being frustrated. But in this case, in that way, of course, we need to have support of international community and I hope that this support will be delivered.

speaker

Nikol Pashinyan

reason

This comment provides insight into the challenges faced by countries seeking EU membership and highlights the importance of international support in achieving regional stability.

impact

It broadened the discussion to include perspectives from countries outside the EU, emphasizing the wider geopolitical context of European power projection.

I’m hiring more people in the legal and compliance departments than in my innovation departments, okay? So Europe and the chemical industry is extremely regulated. We like regulation, but now it’s a burden, specifically for the small and medium-sized companies who cannot handle it, right?

speaker

Ilham Kadri

reason

This comment provides a concrete example of how over-regulation is impacting European competitiveness, particularly for smaller companies.

impact

It shifted the conversation towards the need for regulatory simplification and cohesion, sparking discussion on how to balance regulation with innovation and competitiveness.

We need to reconcile the objective and the green industry. I will take one example. We want all to produce sustainable aviation fuel. You have a requirement to increase sustainable aviation fuels. Today, I’m investing in plants in Europe to provide biorefineries to produce this stuff. But I see imports of stuff coming from China at a cost which is much lower than what I can produce in Europe. I’m not protected.

speaker

Patrick Pouyanné

reason

This comment highlights the tension between Europe’s green agenda and its industrial competitiveness, using a specific example to illustrate the challenges.

impact

It deepened the discussion on how to balance environmental goals with economic competitiveness, leading to calls for better protection of European industry in green sectors.

We will be ready to negotiate, and I believe that we will find good solutions. But the answer of the European strength, and I agree with you, Arantxa, with Patrick, and with Ilham, that strength of Europe was traditional in our economy, in our industry. We’ve been very competitive.

speaker

Maros Sefcovic

reason

This comment synthesizes earlier points and reaffirms Europe’s economic strengths while acknowledging the need for adaptation.

impact

It brought the discussion full circle, tying together themes of competitiveness, negotiation, and industrial policy, setting the stage for concluding remarks.

Overall Assessment

These key comments shaped the discussion by highlighting the multifaceted challenges facing Europe in projecting its power globally. They emphasized the importance of unity, regulatory reform, industrial competitiveness, and balancing environmental goals with economic realities. The discussion evolved from broad concepts of European power to specific policy recommendations, with each speaker contributing unique perspectives from their respective sectors and positions. The overall tone was one of cautious optimism, acknowledging challenges while also identifying opportunities for Europe to strengthen its global position.

How can Europe better integrate its energy policies across member states to optimize capital allocation and improve competitiveness?

speaker

Patrick Pouyanné

explanation

Pouyanné emphasized the need for greater integration of energy policies across EU countries to optimize investments and improve overall competitiveness in the energy sector.

What specific measures can be taken to simplify and reduce regulatory burdens on European industries, particularly for small and medium-sized companies?

speaker

Ilham Kadri

explanation

Kadri highlighted the excessive regulatory burden on European industries, especially chemical companies, and called for simplification to improve competitiveness.

How can the EU create a more cohesive single market, particularly in strategic value chains like electrification, defense, and semiconductors?

speaker

Ilham Kadri

explanation

Kadri stressed the importance of creating a true single market in Europe, especially for key industries, to improve competitiveness and demand.

What steps can be taken to better protect European industries from unfair competition while still maintaining open trade policies?

speaker

Patrick Pouyanné and Maros Sefcovic

explanation

Both speakers mentioned the need to protect European industries, particularly in green technologies, from unfair competition from countries like China, while maintaining open trade.

How can the EU’s competition rules be revised to allow for the creation of European champions in key industries like digital, banking, and energy?

speaker

Patrick Pouyanné

explanation

Pouyanné argued that current competition rules hinder the creation of European champions that can compete globally, and called for a revision of these rules.

What strategies can be employed to navigate the complex geopolitical landscape and maintain balanced relationships with various global powers?

speaker

Nikol Pashinyan

explanation

Pashinyan discussed the challenges of maintaining balanced relationships with different global and regional powers, highlighting the need for careful diplomacy.

How can the EU better support and integrate countries seeking closer ties or membership, like Armenia?

speaker

Nikol Pashinyan

explanation

Pashinyan’s comments on Armenia’s efforts to get closer to the EU suggest a need for exploring how the EU can better support and integrate such countries.

What measures can be taken to ensure that the EU’s green agenda aligns with and supports industrial competitiveness?

speaker

Patrick Pouyanné and Ilham Kadri

explanation

Both speakers emphasized the need to reconcile the EU’s green agenda with industrial competitiveness, suggesting this as an area for further policy development.