How to build trust in user-centric digital public services | IGF 2023 Day 0 Event #193

Audience

The analysis examines the incorporation of artificial intelligence (AI) and digital services in government decision-making processes, providing a comprehensive overview. One key aspect highlighted is the significance of human intervention in AI-driven systems to foster trust among citizens. AI has the potential to enhance the efficiency of government systems, which are rule-based and easily automated. However, human involvement is essential to address potential biases or errors introduced by AI.

The analysis also addresses concerns regarding the exclusion of non-citizens, migrants, and workers from other countries in digital public services. This exclusion may result from the lack of personal identifiers, such as an Aadhaar number in India, which can limit access. To avoid exacerbating existing inequalities, it emphasizes the importance of inclusivity in the development and implementation of digital services.

Furthermore, the analysis raises a crucial concern about digital sovereignty in the context of cloud computing. It notes that many governmental services are shifting to the cloud, and most countries rely on foreign cloud infrastructures. This dependence raises concerns about data breaches, loss of control, and vulnerability to foreign interference. The analysis advocates for caution in heavily relying on foreign cloud infrastructures and calls for strategies to ensure digital sovereignty in the age of cloud computing.

Privacy and data security are also significant considerations in AI implementation. The analysis highlights the need to prevent AI from disclosing critical information gathered and analyzed from the cloud or internet. It emphasizes implementing measures to limit what AI publicly discloses and exercising caution in determining AI’s access to data to protect sensitive information and maintain privacy.

In summary, the analysis emphasizes the need for careful consideration when implementing AI and digital services in government decision-making processes. It argues for human intervention to build trust, inclusivity in digital services, concerns about digital sovereignty in cloud computing, and securing critical information from AI disclosure. These points promote responsible and mindful adoption of AI and digital technologies in the public sector, creating a more equitable, sovereign, and secure environment.

Gautham Ravichander

Building trust in digital government is a significant challenge that hinges on the delivery of reliable, transparent services that work consistently. To foster trust, efficient service delivery, transparency, and data privacy are key factors. Timeliness and clarity in service provision play a crucial role in increasing trust. Providing granular information to citizens is also important, as it empowers them and enhances transparency. Additionally, reforming processes and minimizing data collection help build trust by adhering to the principle of purpose limitation.

Furthermore, trust in digital government can be strengthened by prioritising the trustworthiness of Artificial Intelligence (AI) systems over their efficiency. While rule-bound AI systems are more easily translated into algorithms, the presence of human involvement remains important for the comfort of both citizens and government employees. Ensuring that humans are part of the decision-making loop helps instill trust in the AI systems. This highlights the necessity of human oversight and accountability when employing AI in government operations.

Cloud computing is recognised as a cost-effective and efficient solution for managing large data and resources compared to maintaining physical servers. Countries like India and Germany have adopted similar approaches to cloud computing, recognizing the benefits it offers. The costs associated with maintaining physical infrastructure often outweigh the expenses of utilizing cloud services. Therefore, embracing cloud computing can lead to better resource management and cost savings for governments.

In terms of cybersecurity, breaches in government systems are frequently the result of poor communication and lack of training, rather than sophisticated hacking activities. Approximately 50% of breaches occur due to accidental information release, highlighting the importance of effective communication and comprehensive training programs to minimize such incidents. Addressing these issues can help governments strengthen their cybersecurity protocols and protect sensitive data more effectively.

In conclusion, building trust in digital government necessitates the delivery of reliable and transparent services, as well as an emphasis on data privacy. The integration of physical and digital interactions, known as ‘phygital’, is crucial for the success of digital government globally. Additionally, prioritising the trustworthiness of AI systems and embracing cloud computing can contribute to more efficient and cost-effective government operations. Effective communication and robust training programs are also vital to mitigate cybersecurity breaches and protect sensitive information. By addressing these key areas, governments can foster trust and confidence among citizens in their digital services and operations.

Sascha Michael Nies

The panel discussed the significance of cybersecurity in establishing trust in digital government services. They explored various aspects such as user-friendliness, ease of access, and reliability. The unanimous agreement was that cybersecurity plays a crucial role in fostering trust in these services.

The panel stressed that user-friendliness alone is insufficient to instill confidence in digital government services. While a user-friendly interface is important and enhances the overall user experience, it is equally important to ensure the platform’s security against cyber threats. Without strong cybersecurity measures, users may hesitate to engage with these services, despite their user-friendly nature.

Additionally, the ease of access to digital government services is closely linked to cybersecurity. Users must have assurance that their personal information and data are protected when accessing these services. The panel highlighted that a cybersecurity breach can not only compromise user data but also erode trust in these services, leading to a decrease in willingness to participate.

The panel also discussed the reliability of digital government services in relation to cybersecurity. Users need to trust that these services are dependable and their data will remain secure. A robust cybersecurity framework ensures the integrity and availability of these services, mitigating potential threats or disruptions. Without a reliable system in place, users may be discouraged from utilizing digital government services and may revert to traditional methods.

In conclusion, the panel unanimously agreed that cybersecurity is a critical component of digital government services and a key factor in establishing trust. It encompasses factors such as user-friendliness, ease of access, and reliability. Strong cybersecurity measures are essential for fostering confidence, protecting user data, and maintaining the integrity of digital government services.

Moderator – Christopher Newman

The analysis provides a comprehensive overview of three key aspects of digital government strategies. Firstly, in Brazil, inclusion and accessibility are given utmost importance. The government has actively sought the feedback of over 3,000 individuals to promote these objectives. This commitment to inclusivity is further bolstered through the encouragement of effective communication and the use of user-friendly design systems by public administrations. By prioritising these measures, the Brazilian digital government strategy aims to ensure that all citizens can engage with and benefit from government services.

The second point revolves around the need to build trust in the application of artificial intelligence (AI) within public administration. As AI technology becomes more prevalent, citizens may find themselves faced with decisions that are made by an AI. Therefore, establishing trust in the use of AI is crucial. The analysis suggests that this trust can be cultivated by focusing on transparency and open communication. Public administrations must clearly communicate how AI is being used and ensure that there is a clear understanding of how decisions are made. By doing so, trust can be fostered, ensuring that citizens have confidence in the use of AI within public administration.

The third important aspect emphasized in the analysis is the significance of clear communication about data usage. The acceptance of citizens is vital in this regard. When acquiring data from citizens, it is essential to communicate how that data will be used. This transparency not only helps in building trust but also promotes openness and accountability. By clearly articulating data usage policies, governments can establish a sense of transparency, which is crucial for fostering trust among citizens.

Overall, the analysis underscores the critical role of inclusion, trust in AI, and clear communication in digital government strategies. By prioritising these factors, governments can create more inclusive and accessible systems, build trust in the use of AI, and establish transparency and accountability when it comes to data usage. These measures are crucial for ensuring that digital government strategies effectively serve the needs and interests of all citizens.

Rudolf Gridl

Digital services that are user-friendly and reliable are essential in building trust among users. Services need to be convenient, effective, and accessible at any time and anywhere. Research has shown that if services are not user-friendly, people will not use them, even if they are secure and data-protective. Striking a balance between user-friendliness and data protection/security is crucial. While user-friendly and customer experience can sometimes compromise data protection and security, there must be a trade-off between these aspects to foster trust and encourage the use of digital government services.

Robust data governance frameworks are vital in building trust in digital public services. In the case of Germany, data protection is taken seriously, with a long-standing tradition of protecting personal information. The country even features a constitutional right for informational self-determination. Interestingly, trust in commercial entities is often higher compared to trust in the state when it comes to data protection. This highlights the importance of having strong data governance measures in place to ensure transparency and accountability in handling personal data.

However, data protection concerns can hinder the implementation of digital services. For instance, the introduction of a digitally exclusive nationwide public transport ticket in Germany faced controversy due to data protection concerns. This emphasizes the importance of addressing these concerns and developing solutions that address the privacy and security of users’ data.

Despite these concerns, once citizens experience the convenience and benefits of digital services, they tend to accept and appreciate them. This was seen in the case of the digitally exclusive public ticket service, which was widely received positively by citizens for its convenience. This highlights the need for effective communication and education campaigns to address any initial apprehensions and build trust in digital services.

Involving civil servants in the AI-driven process is crucial for a holistic AI-driven government. By empowering civil servants and ensuring they are part of the decision-making process, governments can better incorporate AI technologies while maintaining human oversight and accountability. This helps build trust and confidence in the use of AI in public administration.

The German Government is actively working on a solution for cloud and cybersecurity. They are pursuing a two-track approach, which involves building the federal German cloud and modifying international cloud systems to act as sovereign clouds for Germany. The goal is to create a user-friendly and highly protected system that meets the country’s cybersecurity needs.

Overall, user-friendly and reliable digital services, along with robust data governance frameworks and effective cybersecurity measures, are essential for building trust in digital government services. Striking a balance between user-friendliness and data protection/security, involving civil servants in the decision-making process, and effectively communicating the benefits of digital services are crucial steps towards fostering trust and acceptance among users.

Valeriya Ionan

The analysis focuses on the topics of trust and digital transformation. Trust is described as the confidence in the actions of stakeholders, specifically the appropriateness of their actions without the need for constant confirmation. Institutional trust is highlighted as being of great importance.

Security is identified as a fundamental requirement for trust. The report then goes on to discuss the digital transformation efforts in Ukraine. It is mentioned that Ukraine is the first country to have digital passports that are completely equivalent to traditional paper or plastic passports. This achievement is seen as a major milestone in the world of digital transformation.

The analysis draws attention to the Diya app, which has been widely embraced by Ukrainians. The app offers a range of services, including document storage, fine and tax payments, and has become a trusted solution for millions of users. This has significantly contributed to public trust in digital services.

The Diya ecosystem is highlighted as a comprehensive platform that encompasses multiple aspects of public services, such as business registration, IT industry support, SME development, and education. It is evident that the Ukrainian government has invested heavily in creating a robust digital infrastructure to support its citizens and promote digital transformation.

The report emphasizes the importance of maintaining continuous communication with citizens about the benefits and significance of digital transformation. It is crucial for the government to involve citizens in the development of new services and to regularly communicate the advantages of digital transformation, including its role in promoting transparency and fighting corruption.

The analysis also highlights international cooperation on AI regulation, which is expected to simplify collaboration with European partners and attract investments. Ukraine is set to assess the impact of technology on human rights and sign voluntary codes of conduct for AI, demonstrating its commitment to responsible AI development.

Data privacy and security are identified as key concerns during the digital transformation process. The DEA system in Ukraine is praised for its approach of connecting directly to highly secure state registers without storing personal data. Regular communication from the government to citizens about digital transformation and privacy is considered crucial.

Digital literacy and accessibility are other important factors discussed in the analysis. The report stresses the need for digital literacy programs to be accessible to everyone, including those without gadgets or internet access, as well as elderly individuals. Digital hubs have been created in Ukraine to facilitate digital literacy efforts.

Offline centres for public services are still available in Ukraine, catering to those who prefer not to use digital services. This is seen as an important consideration to ensure inclusivity and cater to a diverse range of user preferences.

Overall, the analysis highlights the importance of trust in the context of digital transformation and underscores the efforts made by Ukraine to foster public trust in digital services. It also underscores the need for continuous communication, collaboration, and a strong focus on security and privacy to ensure the successful implementation of digital transformation efforts.

Luanna Roncaratti

In Brazil, the biggest challenge in public service delivery is the existing siloed and fragmented model. This traditional bureaucratic model, based on how the government is organised rather than what people deserve and demand, hinders the efficient provision of services. The overall sentiment towards this issue is negative.

To address this challenge, the country has been investing in centralised tools and platforms to move towards a whole-of-government approach. This positive development aims to integrate thousands of services by leveraging a single-window portal called GovBR and the National Digital ID. The interoperability platform, however, requires further work to fully achieve its objectives. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

Brazil’s digital government strategy is built on international experiences and recommendations from the OECD. It focuses on citizen-centricity, aiming to provide an easy and simple way for citizens to interact with the government. Extensive user research has been conducted, with over 150 projects and feedback from more than 3,000 people. This research has helped in the development of initiatives and solutions. The sentiment towards this argument is also positive.

Another important aspect highlighted is the need for plain and simple language in digital tools. Many difficulties faced by people are related to communication rather than technological tools. By improving communication through clear and understandable language, the overall experience can be enhanced. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

Brazil has demonstrated its commitment to digital inclusion and accessibility through various initiatives. For example, an automatic translation tool for sign language called Vilibras has been introduced, making over 100,000 translations daily on Brazilian governmental web pages. Additionally, a design system has been defined for visual communication, offering a unique experience. A quality lab and model for digital services improvement and evolution have also been launched. Furthermore, an API for user feedback and satisfaction assessment is provided. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

In the context of AI usage, it is crucial to prioritise transparency to build trust. Users should be informed when AI is being used and how it is working. This transparency helps prevent potential biases and discrimination. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

However, the analysis also highlights the potential risks related to AI decisions. Cultural information embedded in AI algorithms can lead to discrimination, biases, and prejudice. To address this, users affected by the decisions should have the right to request a review of the provided solution. The sentiment towards this argument is negative.

Data protection and the secure construction of AI systems are also important concerns. AI learning can make data more attractive to hackers and susceptible to data leaks. To mitigate these risks, secure and robust AI systems must be built. The sentiment towards this argument is neutral.

Effective governance plays a crucial role in responsible AI usage. Risk analysis, constant algorithm reviews, and data quality analysis are essential actions to prevent problems related to AI and data misuse. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

Ensuring data interoperability while maintaining its security is another noteworthy observation. Luanna Roncaratti’s organisation focuses on preparing and strengthening the resilience and capacity of different public institutions to protect their data. Instead of storing data, the organisation aims to make different data sets interoperable. The sentiment towards this argument is neutral.

Lastly, Luanna Roncaratti advocates for providing physical responses to people demanding public services, even without any documents. As an example, Brazil’s public health system offers services to any person arriving without any documents. This approach emphasises the importance of inclusivity and access to public services. The sentiment towards this argument is positive.

In conclusion, Brazil’s public service delivery faces challenges due to a siloed and fragmented model. However, efforts are being made to overcome these challenges by investing in centralised tools and platforms, conducting user research, prioritising citizen-centricity, improving communication, and promoting digital inclusion and accessibility. Transparency, responsible AI usage, and data protection are important considerations in the country’s digital governance strategy. Additionally, offering physical responses to people demanding public services without any documents underscores the commitment to inclusivity. These efforts collectively aim to enhance public service delivery and meet the needs and expectations of the people in Brazil.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Welcome to today’s session. Good afternoon, everyone. Very warm welcome to the session, how to build trust in user-centric digital public services. We’re happy that you’re joining us here today for this Day Zero event to kick off the Internet Governance Forum 2023. For all those people joining, please come in, find a seat. My name is Christopher Newman. I’m an advisor at the German Agency for International Cooperation, GIZ, working in the field of digital governance, and I will be your on-site moderator today. A brief note on housekeeping and what we plan to cover in the next hour or so. Our session is being held in hybrid format, as you can see, and will be a roundtable discussion followed by an open question and answer session. After hearing from our panelists, two of whom are here at the top of the table, two of whom are joining us virtually. We encourage the audience, that’s all of you here in this room and all those joining from around the world, to get involved in the discussion. For all participants joining us via Zoom, please keep your microphones muted for the duration of the session. I believe your microphones are automatically muted, so that makes things easier. And you are encouraged to post questions to our panelists in the chat at any time. So if you have a question burning to get off your chest, please feel free to post it in the chat, and we will pick it up in the Q&A. This session is organized by the German Federal Ministry for Digital and Transport, together with GIZ. The German Ministry for Federal, Federal Ministry for Digital and Transport engages in digital dialogues with several key countries, partner countries around the world, to shape better framework conditions for the digital transformation of our governments, economies, and societies. As a multi-stakeholder initiative, the digital dialogues provide a platform for direct exchange between policymakers, regulators, businesses, and civil society. The goal of this session here today is to share lessons in implementing trustworthy and user-centric digital public services, and to explore the role of data governance and AI in building trust. Now before we jump in and I hand over to our moderators, sorry, to our speakers, a few words on what we’re going to talk about here today. In today’s digital era, citizens increasingly expect government services to be convenient and easily accessible across channels, devices, and platforms. They have the potential to meet citizens’ demands and be more responsive, improve service delivery, and transform how citizens are engaging with their governments. Underpinning the success of these new digital public services is the aspect of trust. Citizens must feel confident that their personal data is handled responsibly, and that digital public services are reliable and secure. This then in turn raises important questions around what data governance frameworks must be put in place, how to drive the adoption of services through user-centered design, and how AI can be leveraged responsibly to unlock possibilities for automation and personalization in a way that boosts efficiency while also maintaining trust. To help unpack some of these complex issues, we have a panel of four esteemed speakers with a wealth of experience on this topic, representing four different country perspectives. I would like to introduce them to you. First off, here in the room, we have Dr. Rudolf Griedl, Director General of the Central Department at the German Federal Ministry for Digital and Transport. In this role, he’s responsible for advancing the digitalization in his administration. His ministry also coordinates across the government on Germany’s digital and data strategies. Previously, he headed the Department of International Digital Policy at the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. Next, moving to the online world, we are happy to have joining us virtually from Kyiv, Valeria Yonan. Valeria is the Deputy Minister at the Ministry of Digital Transformation in Ukraine, where she oversees Ukraine’s National Digital Literacy Program, development and growth of SMEs and entrepreneurship, regional digital transformation, as well as Euro integration and international relations. Back in this room, we have Dr. Luana Roncaracci, I hope I pronounced that okay, who serves as Deputy Secretary of Digital Government at the Brazilian Ministry of Management and Innovation in Public Services. Luana is responsible for coordinating the digital transformation of the federal administration, as well as developing Brazil’s national strategy of digital government in cooperation with states and municipalities. Last but not least, online, we have joining us Gautam Ravichander, who is Head of Strategy at the eGov Foundation in India. Over the past 20 years, the eGov Foundation has developed and implemented digital solutions for city and state administrations across India to develop accessible, affordable, and inclusive e-services. Gautam previously led eGov’s policy initiatives with the government of India and partner states. Welcome to you all. Now, without further ado, let’s jump straight into our discussion. We will start off with a lightning round, and I would like to ask each participant to briefly, in one minute or so, share your thoughts on the following question. What do you see as the biggest challenge in building trust in digital government? And please stick to the time allotted, so I don’t have to be rude and cut you off. And we’re going to start with Gautam. Please, the floor is yours.

Gautham Ravichander:
Thank you, Christopher. So what I’m going to say is going to sound a little simple, but it has to work. It has to work reliably, transparently, on time, every time. That is unfortunately not the experience of many people in many parts of the world in much of recent history, right? So it’s not just citizens who need to see this working, it’s even government leaders and government officials who need to see these systems working. They have to believe that these systems work, they deliver transparency, they deliver services, they deliver benefits, and they make life easier for everyone involved. And they do not impinge on sovereignty, otherwise they will not even initiate such efforts, especially in much of the developing world. The other element is in much of the world, it’s not really going to be pure digital government. You’re going to have what we call digital government, which is a portmanteau of physical and digital. We need humans in the loop, people who will actually work with citizens on the ground because they have trust face-to-face, and enable them to access the digital world. So I think this is going to be important, making sure that the seamless experience of digital government is something that everybody experiences for trust to start building.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Gautam, thank you very much. I learned a new word there, fidgetal. I’m not sure about you. I’ve heard of phablet for the phone-slash-tablet, but fidgetal is a good word in integrating digital and physical. I’d like to hand the word over to Dr. Griedl. What do you see as the biggest challenge of building trust in digital government?

Rudolf Gridl:
Actually, thank you very much, Christopher, and welcome to everybody. From my side, actually, much in the same direction. I think the services have to be user-friendly and reliable at the same time. This is sometimes a challenge. The more we get into user-friendliness and customer experience, the less sometimes we have to be able to respect data protection and security issues. So there has to be a trade-off, but for the people to, first of all, use these services, they have to work. They have to be convenient. They have to be in place every time, everywhere. This is something that we are experiencing in Germany. If this is not the case, you can build a very secure and a very data-protective framework. People won’t use it. So I think that’s the most important challenge, and my minute is over.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Dr. Griedl. Valeria, over to you.

Valeriya Ionan:
Good afternoon, dear ladies and gentlemen. I would like to dig a little bit deeper. So I would start with another question, and what is trust, and what does it mean to trust, and when trust happens by default? Can it really happen by default? And I think you will agree with me that this is the complex question for just one minute. So Chris, please don’t be rude to me, but probably I will need 30 seconds more. So however, I like one of the definitions that trust is confidence in the appropriateness of actions of a certain stakeholder without a need of actualizing such confidence on a regular basis. And this is great definitions to my mind, leads us to some very important conclusions. First of all, institutional trust is very important. Secondly, therefore, one of the basic requirements of trust is security. And thirdly, when it comes to digital government, sometimes there might be no correlation between electronic transparency and trust in government. So what to do about it? I think we have a lot to discuss during today’s session. Thank you.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Valeria. And thank you for sticking to the time as well. Finally, to round us off in the lightning round, Luana.

Luanna Roncaratti:
Well, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for having me. And I’m going directly to the point, well, from our point of view, we believe that one of the biggest challenges that we have is the siloed and fragmented model of providing public services. I think it impacts a lot the way how service delivery is done today. And it comes from the traditional bureaucratic model that it used to be defined by the way government is organized and not in the way people deserve and demand services, public services. And by investing in centralized tools and platforms, we are trying to advance towards a whole of government approach. And we’ve been discussing and defining and providing tools such as the Single Window Portal, GovBR, the National Digital ID. We’ve hundreds of millions of people that already have the .br account, the digital signature, and mainly also that we have a lot to do, a lot of work ahead of us to do, that is the interoperability platform and that the idea is to integrate thousands of services as well. And I finished my time, sorry.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Luana. So what do we take away from the lightning round? We heard a definition of trust and the complexity of what does it even mean to have trust in these digital public services. We heard the issue of path dependency of how public services were provided in the past, the fragmentation and silo that make it difficult to shift to a digital mindset. And we heard about output legitimacy that it has to work, first and foremost, and each of us as citizens of our respective jurisdictions have experienced that, that it feels good when things work. Now, let us dive into more depth and I would like to now hear perspectives from the panelists on a few different aspects of this, of trust in digital public services. Gautam, starting with you, India has created a tech stack for the entire country of 1.4 billion people and your organization supports governments in building platforms for better service delivery. What have you learned from working with digitalization with various levels of government in India and what factors matter most in fostering trust between governments and citizens?

Gautham Ravichander:
Sure. Thanks for that, Christopher. I think I’m just going to go back quickly to recap my previous answer, it has to work reliably. Now, this is not the software alone, right? It’s the government and the whole process of delivering services and benefits to citizens. So for this, we have to really focus on capacity. Capacity can mean many things, right? At the front line, you know, field employees get the information that they need and they are able to perform the tasks they have to do in a very time-bound manner. Administrators can manage their resources, human, financial, and the performance of these resources to address the issues that they’re coming up with. And ideally speaking, they should be able to spot and preempt crises before they happen. Policy makers should be able to track progress on goals and use the system to have greater confidence that the policy as intended is actually going to translate into execution on the ground. Somewhere in the midst of all of this, you need someone who’s able to actually deploy and manage systems, right? Now, on this, I will say that when those capacities for technology development and maintenance are not within government, that can be contracted in and partnered with. But you cannot get away from the capacity needs at the field levels, the administrator levels, and the policymaker levels. So focusing on building those capacities, especially at the local government level, is going to be important because that’s the interface between human beings and the government itself, right? The second thing really comes down to focusing on making and keeping promises, right? SLA is a promise that I will deliver X service. It could be something as simple as applying for a trade license or running a shop, and I will get it in Y time, and it will happen without any issues or with a certain amount of quality. All levels that I described in the previous part have to align to make this happen. So when we are defining these timelines, when we are defining these promises as governments to citizens, we have to ensure that they are promises that can be kept, they are realistic. So there’s no point promising that a road will get fixed overnight if the local government does not have the financial resources and the manpower to ensure those things can happen. This also needs to be paired with the need of transparency. So as a citizen, can you see the status of any request you’ve made, where it is sitting? Is it delayed? Is it auto-escalated? Can you request escalations? Are you able to get into the details of what is happening without having to walk into a government office? That clarity actually is important, more than just the timeliness, just transparency so that I know where my files are being processed, what’s going on with my application, goes a long way to increasing trust. Otherwise, typically we are all used to a non-functional government system, really looking at sites that say it’s in process and that’s it. We don’t know anything else and we don’t know how long it will take. So focus on giving more granular information to citizens. This third piece really comes back to focusing on security and privacy. Now this is a digital panel. There is always a lot of conversation about technology, encryption mattering, things like privacy by design. But a lot of the real gains have really come from process performance. So for example, a field engineer who is servicing a water connection request does not need to know every single piece of information about the person who has made that request. They just need to know the information required to perform their function. So re-educating them and providing them with that information in a way that they can deliver that service to the citizen, as well as ensuring that on the back end, the various pieces of information that are required to provide that service, for example, verifying your identity, collecting your payments, possibly even verifying your property records, can be done digitally without having to constantly rely on human beings passing the files. What does this mean? It doesn’t mean that we send files as PDFs. It means that you can query systems through APIs and if somebody says, hey, I’m Gautam Ravi Chandra and I live in place X, that is something that an API can verify and it will go back and say, yes, Gautam is who he says he is. And by the way, he does stay at the place he says he stays at, so you can go ahead and provide him that water connection. So in that way, to a certain manner, you’ll automatically start building in purpose limitation by reforming processes and minimizing data collection straight into workflows. I’ll pause there. Thank you.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Gautam. Very important fundamental points you raised there. Returning here to the physical aspect of the digital space we are moving in, Dr. Greedl, Germany is known for being a champion of data protection and data privacy. What role do robust data governance frameworks play in building trust in digital public services?

Rudolf Gridl:
Yes, thank you. Certainly it’s true that we are a country of huge data protection tradition. We have even a constitutional right for informational self-determination that has been created by our constitutional court in the 80s, very early in the process. And data protection is very dear to the heart of Germans. So if you regularly do surveys amongst the Germans, they will say data protection in relation to state and to companies, it’s very, very high on the agenda. If you look at the behavior in day-to-day lives, you see quite a different picture because as long as it is for the private sector, people are willing to share data and provide data to larger companies, to platforms, and so forth. Not so much to the state. So all the official channels are still a little bit mistrusted. What do they do with my data? So it plays a huge role for the acceptance of services that you can credibly argue your data is secure. And it’s not only the security, it’s also the data protection meaning. If we collect any data from the citizen, we will only collect it for the purpose that we are saying that we are collecting it. And we are not going to match it with, I don’t know, other data files. Like we are not going to match the health record. record with the employment record or things like that, which makes things much more difficult for the administration. It would be much easier if we had all these data files together at one place. But we do not, as you were saying, Gautam, we need a transparent process and a transparent administration. And we at the same time do not want a transparent citizen that the state knows everything about. So I give you one example. We were introducing this year a newly designed public transport ticket that is valid all over Germany. It’s one ticket valid all over Germany. And the idea was to introduce it only as a digital ticket only. And so, I mean, it’s a great idea. In Germany, you have like 50-something public transport systems and nobody knows what to do where. And this ticket is a huge convenience for the citizens. But there was a large discussion, is it legitimate for the state to do it digitally because of data protection, because of people who do not have a smartphone, who do not need necessarily your smartphone. You need only a computer, but it doesn’t matter. But it is one example that we had this discussion, now we introduced it, and people get used to it. And they say it’s a great idea and they want it to be continued and so forth. So the data protection, in my view, it’s important. It’s a principle. It’s very dear to the hearts. You have to break it down to a very concrete purpose. And when people see that the data they are providing, at the end, leads to better services and gives them a benefit in their daily lives, they are more than willing to do so. But it’s a struggle. And the second struggle, I don’t know if I have so much time left, no, okay, it’s just that we have, like India, we have so many layers of government. And I will delve into this in another context. Thank you.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you, Dr. Griedl. That’s a whole other session. If you want to talk about federalism in Germany, stick around. We can talk about that afterwards. Thank you very much. Now, a question to you, Valeria. Ukraine has developed an app, a state in a smartphone, known as Diya, where citizens can carry, I think it’s around 14, or maybe it’s more by now, digital documents, like their driver’s license or their passport, on their phone. This to some people living in some countries is quite remarkable. How did Diya become a trusted solution used by already half of the Ukrainian population?

Valeriya Ionan:
Thank you, Chris, for this great question. So you all know that Ukraine has been called a European digital transformation tiger. And Ukraine is also the first country in the world where digital passports are totally equivalent to paper or plastic ones. Ministry of Digital Transformation in Ukraine is the newest ministry in Ukrainian government. We are only four years old. And we have a rare opportunity to bring new approaches, build and implement bold vision and deliver concrete products and services like Diya. So first of all, we have a great vision. We want to build the most convenient digital state in the world. And in order to achieve that, we have created an ecosystem of digital projects, which is called Diya, which has five projects. The first one is our state super app, which is used by 19.5 million users. And this state super app combines 14 digital documents around 30 services and digital signature. So even before the full scale Russian invasion to Ukraine, Ukrainians have been able to pay fines or to pay taxes through Diya. And when the full scale Russian invasion to Ukraine started, we’ve been able to launch new services just from three days to a few weeks in order to respond to those challenges that we’ve seen on the market. So just to give you several examples, when the Russian missile started to hit residential area, people started to go to shelters and they did not have any access to news. And that’s how and why we embedded TV and radio into Diya app. Then a lot of people had to relocate from their regions to another regions inside the country. And we have created a service in Diya that gave a possibility to receive a status of internally displaced person. And later, those people with the IDP status could receive a direct social and financial assistance also through Diya. Another great example, which relates a lot to the topic of our today’s session at Trust, it’s a service which is called eRecovery. So this is the possibility on the first stage to receive a compensation from state for damaged or destroyed property because of a full-scale Russian aggression to Ukraine. And the second stage is basically the possibility to deny your property rights online and receive a certificate for a new property also online. So this is a very complex service, not just from the technical side, but also from the side of the Trust. So Diya State Super App is just one project of our Diya ecosystem, which also includes State Portal of Public Services, Diya, where we have all of the services, the majority of services digitized and we plan to have all of the services digitized in a year. And basically, we have the fastest business registration in the world. So you can register your business online in Ukraine only for 10 minutes. Diya CT, which is a special economic and tax regime for IT industry, Diya Business, a separate project for the development of SMEs and Diya Education, a national edutainment platform for reskilling and digital literacy. Because if you are building the most convenient digital state in the world, people have to have at least basic level of digital skills, an opportunity to use services and benefits which state is creating for them. So Diya State Super App today is a love mark because basically, we had a lot of communication before launching this ecosystem and launching this app and explaining our citizens what is digital transformation and why it is important for every citizen. So we also, for example, count the effect of anti-corruption and transparency from digital transformation every year and we also communicate about this to our citizens. Also, we are engaging citizens into the process of the development of new services and basically of better testing of every new service. I think the probably most important thing about creating Diya as a love mark is not just the user-centric and human-centric product that completely changes the way how government cooperates with citizens, but it’s also a regular communication with citizens and explaining all of the benefits that citizens could receive from digital transformation.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Valeria, for elaborating on Diya and how it is a tool for very direct communication also with citizens in addition to offering them services and documents. Before coming to Luana, I would just like to remind the online audience that the chat is open. You are able to post your questions in there anytime. We have two more questions and then we will be opening up to a Q&A. And now over to you, Luana. Brazil’s digital government strategy emphasizes several key principles in building trust and confidence in digital public services. One of these principles that jumped out at me when reading this is citizen-centricity. Can you elaborate on why you think this is central to making the digital transformation of government a success?

Luanna Roncaratti:
Yes, sure. I can also share some of the initiatives that we’ve been conducting on this subject and that’s true. The citizen-centricity is definitely a core value to Brazilian digital government strategy which was elaborated based on international experiences and also OECD recommendations. And we believe that it is about offering an easy and simple way for people to interact with government and also providing high-quality digital services. Brazil is a very diverse country and we need to fit to different backgrounds, to different digital skills. And this discussion is also connected to digital inclusion and also leaving no one behind, which is also a very dear value to our government. And to respond properly to all these necessities, we seek to be continuously hearing from the citizens. We have been conducting several user research projects to map the main difficulties that people have in those digital interactions to evolve our main solutions. And we’ve been hearing more than 3,000 people and we have conducted more than 150 projects so far. And as a result, we have developed some initiatives. We have learned a lot about the main difficulties that people face and those initiatives also work as platform as well. And some of them are not technological ones, but they help to ease the journey for people. And for example, we have worked hardly to promote the use of plain and simple language in digital tools because we learned that many difficulties people face are related to communication and not necessarily to technological tools. We also defined a design system because it helps a lot the visual communication and it presents the interface standards so that people can have a feeling of unique experience in interaction, in interacting with government systems. We also launched a quality lab and a quality model that creates standards to support digital services improvement and evolution. And also, we provide an API for seats and feedback, satisfaction assessment, and other user research initiatives. And there is also finally a tool that we developed that is called Vilibras, which automatically translates the web page content to sign language, and Vilibras makes more than 100,000 translations daily in our governmental web pages. And we are also working to provide tools to provide more self-services and personalized service and more proactive initiatives as well. And I think that all these initiatives have been able to improve inclusion, accessibility, and also the quality of digital services that the federal government now provides in Brazil.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Wow. Luana, thank you very much. We’ve covered a lot of ground in this question round, everything from building capacity at different levels of government to the importance of digital skills and meeting them where they are, which is often on their smartphone in many places, while not ignoring the question of inclusion and the topic of leave no one behind and accessibility, and of course, the importance of gaining the acceptance of citizenry also through clearly communicating how their data will be used when we ask for their data as governments. Excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you to the panelists. Before we open it up for Q&A, and I hope everyone here in the room is already thinking of a question or two that they can ask. We will only have time for one per person. A final question now, looking to the future, connected data sets together with advanced analytics open up new opportunities now to offer proactive digital public services, for example, based on life events. At the same time, the use of AI in public administration leads to the fact that citizens might find themselves confronted with a decision that was made by an algorithm and not a human. So now my question to the panel, again, and this time we’ll go in reverse order, is how can trust be built and maintained in an age where AI is increasingly embedded in public administrations? And I’d kindly ask you to limit your answer to two minutes per person so that we can get some questions from the online and offline audience. Duana, the floor is yours.

Luanna Roncaratti:
Well, first of all, we believe that there are some necessary actions that should be taken in order to build a trustable context, environment, and process in which AI is used in public administration. I would like to comment on four of them. Regarding transparency, we are convinced that users need to know when AI is being used and how it is working. And we know that this is a challenge. It’s not always easy to explain and to understand how the results are generated, but we understand that it is necessary that we make efforts to enhance transparency and to communicate properly how AI is working. Secondly, we know that AI decisions may carry cultural information that can lead to discrimination, biases, and prejudice. Then, when controls fail, users affected by the decisions must have the right to request review of the solution provided by AI. Thirdly, with the use of a lot of data combined for AI learning, they become much more attractive to hackers and data leaks. Then, we also believe that it is necessary to invest in privacy and security controls to mitigate risk and avoid threats. And finally, we believe it’s also important that each institution establishes adequate governance, which includes risk analysis, constant review of algorithms, analysis of data quality, and et cetera, to guide the actions that will prevent problems related to the use of AI and also the data misuse.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Doana, thank you very much. And with that, straight over to you, Valeria. AI and trust in public administration.

Valeriya Ionan:
Thank you, Chris. So again, building trust is a really complex and long-term process. However, when it comes to AI, it is important to balance between regulation and innovation. Addressing specifically the topic of AI, we in the Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine have just recently presented the roadmap of AI regulation in Ukraine. So according to this roadmap, Ukrainian companies will cooperate with the international partners. Thanks to a legal regime identical to the EU, we will adopt a law similar to the European AI Act. And this will allow us to create identical legal regimes with the EU in the field of AI, simplify cooperation with European partners, and attract investments. We will also provide businesses with tools to prepare for future AI regulation, from assessing the impact of technology on human rights to signing voluntary codes of conduct. We will also publish recommendations to answer questions about what to do right now and what to expect in the future. And of course, a safe digital environment where human rights are protected in the digital space will be also created. Thank you.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Very to the point. Thank you very much, Valeria. Dr. Greedle, how can trust be built and maintained in an age where AI is used in public administration?

Rudolf Gridl:
So what we are going to do is we are using, we are starting to use AI, but we will only use it as a tool and not as a kind of decision-making tool. So what we will do is the first step is to have an efficient decision-making by AI. Sorry, Valeria, you can’t be in the front. Is that better? No, it’s better? Okay, okay, thank you. Okay, so shall I restart or no? Okay, so what we are doing is putting, for the time being, always a human at the end of the decision process. That is something that gives trust. Actually, it’s a psychological trust because, as we all know, AI sometimes is more reliable and more precise in decision-making. But we need to be, as a state, as a government, we need to take everybody on board. That is something that we are planning to do, and I hope that it helps us to create this dearly needed trust because, on the other hand, there’s another aspect of trust. It’s not the trust of the citizens. It’s the trust of the civil servants that are dealing with these processes and that are now owners of the processes and that need to be taken on board also into this process. I think for them also, if we want to create a holistic AI-driven government, it’s important to have the civil servants on board and so to give them or to empower them to give the decision also or to be the last ones in the decision line.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much for raising those two important aspects, human in the loop and trust of civil servants and not only the citizens in the end. To round off this round, Gautam, can I ask you to share your perspective, please?

Gautham Ravichander:
Absolutely. So, I will reinforce what’s already been said. We also believe in the importance of ensuring there are humans in the loop. While government systems being rule-bound tend to be very translatable to AI, it’s still very important for citizens and for the government employees themselves to have the comfort that there are human beings who are reviewing this, that there’s an element of humanity that’s actually going into the decision-making processes. It’s not necessarily going to be more efficient to do this, but it’s going to be more trustworthy, and I think that’s more important during the short run. Over time, we also need to build in robust feedback and grievance loops. This is something that Luana also mentioned. I think it’s important for people to know when AI is being used to actually be able to raise grievance in systems where the AI system has not given a good answer. Beyond that, I think we need to look at a few opportunities that AI presents, right? So, for a country the size of India, the range of contexts in which we work, the types of languages in which we work, it’s important that AI can help ensure translation. So, one of the areas that we as India are definitely exploring is the usage of AI to speak across multiple languages. So, someone in the north speaking in a language called Punjabi could actually be…

Audience:
Yes, hello. My name is Rita from the New Club of Paris. I have a question about the digital inclusion or exclusion. We have here four countries, and if you’re not a citizen in the country, you may be excluded from the services because you don’t have the personal identifier. And that’s, for instance, if you don’t have an Aadhaar number in India, you’re bad luck. And I wonder in Ukraine or in Sweden or in any other country, if you don’t have that digital ID number, you are not a citizen of that country. You cannot receive any services. And I think this applies both in an increasingly global world. It excludes migrants but also expats and workers who work in different countries. So, I think this digital public services are very often exclusive services. How would you address those questions?

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much. I would suggest we throw this back to our panelists before taking any more to not have too many topics on here because they’re all quite big in themselves. So, we had the question of practical ways of showing how governments are dealing with data protection privacy, what it means, and inclusion of non-citizens. Do any of the panelists feel like they want to speak to either of these questions? I see Valeria’s hand up. Please, go ahead.

Valeriya Ionan:
If I may, thank you so much for these great questions. So, I’ll start with the first one and give you an example of DEA and what we are doing. So, for example, for DEA, we use the approach… DEA does not store any personal data. DEA uses the approach data in transit, which means that DEA connects directly to the state registers and shows the data which is needed. That’s like the first answer. To highly secure state registers, a very important remark. Second remark. The next thing is that, remember, I told that it is very important, a regular communication from government to citizens, right? About what digital transformation is, what are digital services, why digital literacy is important, what is privacy, and so on. So, citizens should understand that government already have their data. The question is how government uses this data, right? So, for example, when citizens will understand who and when checks their data in the registry and receive notifications, it is about respect for this data, about avoiding the misusage of this data. Citizens’ data belong to citizens and they have to know it. For example, we in the Ministry of Digital Transformation, we are also in the process of launching such push notifications for all registries. But the first stage, which we already done, was notifications about the revision for all the credit history in DIA. So, for example, if someone checks your credit history or opens a loan, you get notified in DIA. So, you open the notification, go to the link to the Ukrainian Credit History Bureau, and you can react quickly. And the same notification will come if you get a card with a credit limit or open a loan. So, there is like, you know, as you mentioned very correctly, it’s not a simple topic. It’s a very complex topic. On the one hand, you have to work with the prevention. You have to do a lot of communication. You have to launch big projects on digital literacy. You have to make digital literacy available for everyone, not only for those people who have their gadgets and Internet connection, but also for people of elegant age or people who are for some reason like excluded and have no Internet connection or no gadgets at home. You have to create opportunity for them, like going to some special places. Like in Ukraine, we have digital hubs with facilitators who can facilitate the first contact for the people with the gadget and platform and so on. Another thing is basically to explain those things. And the third thing is technical architecture, right? So, how your technical products are built and how do you basically notify people about using their data? Another good question was about the digital exclusion. Well, in Ukraine, for example, we still have offline centers of public services. So, if people don’t want to use digital services, they still can go and use them offline. But the thing is that and basically what revolution made DIA in Ukraine, DIA made digital transformation like a pop culture. DIA is a love mark. We have shown that basically the communication with the government could be as simple as communication with such startups as Uber, as Bolt, as Airbnb or Booking. Two clicks and everything is done. So, you don’t need to stay in lines for four hours. You don’t need to waste your time, waste your money. You have to leave and the less government people have in their lives, the better. And that’s what Ukrainians already understood. And that’s why and how we still can continue and we continue to build new digital products and digital services. So, anyway, it is not obligatory to use DIA. It’s just the will of people to make their lives easier. So, you still have both options. Thank you.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you, Valeria, for bringing in the point that we also need to have offline ways to access these services, of course, for the people who don’t want to or can’t access them online for some reason. Do any of the other speakers want to pick up on this point or should we open for another round of questions? Luana, please.

Luanna Roncaratti:
I can quickly try to react also to the questions on the first one. We also don’t storage data. It’s basically a way to interact to make the different data sets that we have interoperable. And what we do concerning data protection and privacy is that we have been working a lot to prepare and to strengthen resiliency and the capacity of different public institutions so that they can safeguard and can protect the data that they already have and they may storage in their data sets and all the systems that they have. And also to communicate better so that people can understand and also have all the precautions necessary in their data. And on the exclusion, in case of Brazil, we have actually a number for foreigners who live in Brazil. They can have the identification if they live there so they can access the digital and also the physical sets that are provided. And in some cases, such as the public health system, even if they don’t have the number and even if some person arrives without any document or anything, they are allowed to be served and be attended in these situations. And we also have in some units, some agencies that can provide the physical response to people who deserve and demand the public services.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Luana. I would like to pick up on that keyword of inclusion and also include our online audience. Here we have a question. And with that, I’ll hand over to the online moderator, Sascha, my colleague, to please share the question.

Sascha Michael Nies:
Yeah, thank you very much. So, of course, we also appreciate questions by our participants online. And we do have a question to the panel on cybersecurity and its relevance for trust in digital government services. I believe some of it has been covered already by our panel. However, the question would be in how far cybersecurity matters in your experience, considering all the aspects discussed today already, such as user-friendliness, ease of access, reliability, and so on.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you, Sascha. The question of cybersecurity, the digital elephant in the room that has not been addressed explicitly, perhaps. We’ll take one more question. And this, unfortunately, will then also be the last question. I see a question over there. And there’s a microphone right there by chance. So, Franz, please.

Audience:
So I have, in a way, a related question to cybersecurity. You asked previously how to deal with trust in the age of AI. I ask how to deal with trust in the age of cloud computing in the context that most governmental services are moving to the cloud. And most countries rely on foreign cloud infrastructures, be it Huawei, be it AWS, be it Azure or whatever. So only two countries in the world kind of are having their own domestic cloud operators, and the rest rely on foreign cloud operators. And our partner governments in Africa are quite concerned about the digital sovereignty of their public services running on foreign cloud infrastructure.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much. I think we have, was there one question? Final question back there. I see it’s a burning question, and then the other two we’ll put together. Okay, please be brief.

Audience:
Yeah, so I’m Glinda. I’m from the Philippines. So since AI gives feedback from the information it sees, gathers, and analyzes from the cloud or Internet, how do we prevent AI from divulging critical information from our systems, databases, and websites? And what limits AI in giving and what it must just give publicly and be cautious in giving information that needs to be kept private?

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
That’s it. Okay, that sounds like a whole other session in and of itself. Thank you for the question. We now have approximately four minutes remaining, and therefore I would like one or two panelists to pick up on the issue of cybersecurity and cloud computing and perhaps another comment on the question of AI, how do we ensure it doesn’t go spilling all our governmental secrets and the secrets of all our citizens? Dr. Greedo, please.

Rudolf Gridl:
Very briefly on the issue of cloud and cybersecurity, that’s a very relevant issue. And as German government, we are very intensively, is it still on? We are working on a two-track solution, either building our own like federal German cloud, which is perhaps feasible for some very dedicated services, but also we are working with international cloud providers on trying to modify their cloud systems in a way that they will be sovereign clouds for Germany. So we are discussing. We will see where we will get, but that’s very important. And the same goes for the cybersecurity, of course. Everything that we are doing in our state system, we are doing it inside a very highly protected cybersecurity-enforced system. I think that is not the challenge. The challenge is to do it user-friendly and cybersecure.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much for this perspective. Looking to our online speakers, the questions of cybersecurity and cloud computing and AI, anything to add briefly before we wrap up the session? Okay. Oh, I see the hands. I’m sorry. I was looking for physical hands, and there are the virtual hands right in front of us. Okay. Then, Gautam, over to you, please.

Gautham Ravichander:
So on cloud computing, pretty much what Germany is doing, there are similar approaches that India is adopting. I’ll just add one additional piece on cloud. I think what we see is this preference for if the server is in my room, it cannot be hacked, which is a bit of re-education that often now might have to do with folks who are coming into the space. But I think the other element then comes back to the costs of actually maintaining that kind of infrastructure when you kind of run that against the cost of working off the cloud. A lot of times the government officers then quite quickly understand that it’s much better for me to use this as a service rather than to actually build out an entire new team and distract my own attention and my resources on this. On the piece about privacy, I think, and cybersecurity, I think all the points that have been said so far I completely agree with. But primarily, I think one element on cybersecurity that keeps happening with government systems is communication. When you do have breaches or if you’ve dealt with breaches well, keeping people informed, keeping them informed in a way that builds trust is more important than saying it didn’t get breached. Sometimes we also have to train people up front because some of the breaches are not because people hacked them, but because somebody inadvertently released data. And that kind of capacity building is very, in our minds, when we think of like, oh, people are hacking in front of us, this is actually the low-grade capacity building, but it’s the foundations of cybersecurity. So about 50% of breaches happen not because somebody hacked your system, but because somebody released information inadvertently.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Gautam, for raising that point. Valeria, your hand is still up. I’d like you to be brief in your comments before we wrap up the session.

Valeriya Ionan:
I’ll try to do it. I just wanted to give a small story. Well, a few months before the full-scale Russian invasion to Ukraine, we’ve seen the increase in the cyber attacks to Ukraine. And at the same moment, we have been working on a new law, which should have allowed us to transfer data into the cloud. So just a few weeks before the full-scale Russian invasion to Ukraine, this law was adopted, and we moved all the data into cloud. And then when the full-scale Russian invasion started, just in a week, a Russian missile hit the data center physically. It destroyed the data center where we used to store backups. But our data was already in the cloud. So I would just like to address the question that, to our mind, there is no unique solution to that. You always have to balance. And it does not mean that you don’t need a data center or you have to store data only in cloud. So you have to balance. And the same comes about cooperation with different partners. We believe in a golden triangle. Governments should work with the private sector and civil society and find the best ways to cooperate for the mutual benefit. And about the cybersecurity, of course, we take it super seriously. And when it comes, for example, specifically to DIA ecosystem, we have our own red team who is working on a daily basis to find even minor vulnerabilities. We also conduct bug bounties twice a year, and we do plenty of other measures. So cybersecurity is a very big and very important topic. We take it super seriously, and we would be really glad to share our insights, maybe in the next session. Thank you very much for your attention.

Moderator – Christopher Newman:
Thank you very much, Valeria. Dear panelists, thank you for all your inputs, your contributions. Thank you to the audience who is here. I’m sorry we could not take all your questions. It was a very good discussion. Feel free to hang around, float outside with us later. We can continue the discussion. And I wish you an insightful IGF 2023. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.