Accelerating an Inclusive Energy Transition | IGF 2023 Open Forum #133

Audience

In different parts of the world, there is variation in the technologies used for energy distribution. Some regions rely on gas, while others rely on electricity. This highlights the global disparity in energy usage and the need for equitable access to energy resources.

The impact of technology on the environment is a crucial consideration, as its consequences become more significant with advances in technology. It is essential to assess the environmental impact of new technologies and develop sustainable alternatives.

Furthermore, fairness in energy distribution and technology usage globally is emphasised. The use of different energy sources, such as gas and electricity, underlines the importance of ensuring equal access to energy resources, reducing inequality, and achieving affordable and clean energy for all.

The concept of “clean code” is also discussed, which refers to efficient and well-optimized software that consumes less energy. Clean coding practices can contribute to responsible consumption and production, aligning with the Sustainable Development Goal of responsible consumption and production.

The analysis also raises concerns about the energy consumption associated with Artificial Intelligence (AI). While AI has positive impacts, it also presents challenges in terms of energy consumption. The consideration of energy consumption in AI development and policy-making processes is essential to address its environmental implications.

In conclusion, the analysis highlights the lack of global uniformity in energy distribution technologies. It stresses the need to consider the environmental impact of technological advancements and work towards equitable energy distribution. Additionally, the importance of clean coding practices and the need to address energy consumption in AI development are emphasized. By addressing these issues, we can move towards sustainable energy practices and responsible technological development.

Chantarapeach Ut

The analysis explores the importance of supporting youth-led innovation and entrepreneurship in green technology. It emphasises the need to nurture and financially support young people’s initiatives in this field. Examples of youth-led technology innovations include green energy engineering, smart agriculture, renewable energy optimizations, air quality monitoring, green buildings, climate modeling, and eco-friendly transportation. By empowering young people to develop environmentally-friendly technology, we can make significant progress towards achieving SDG 7 (Affordable and Clean Energy) and SDG 13 (Climate Action).

Additionally, the analysis highlights the significance of raising awareness and exposure to green jobs for young people. Green jobs contribute to sustainable energy advancements and include positions such as green AI researchers, sustainability data analysts, renewable energy engineers, and clean tech researchers. By informing and inspiring young people about these opportunities, we can encourage them to pursue careers that contribute to a sustainable energy future. This aligns with SDG 7 (Affordable and Clean Energy) and SDG 8 (Decent Work and Economic Growth).

Furthermore, involving young people in decision-making processes related to digital policy and climate change is essential. Platforms like the Cambodian Youth Internet Governance Forums and the Local Conference of Youth under UNGO offer spaces for young people to participate and express their ideas on these crucial matters. Inclusive energy transition can be accelerated by incorporating youth perspectives, leading to more effective and inclusive energy systems. This involvement aligns with SDG 7 (Affordable and Clean Energy) and SDG 13 (Climate Action).

The analysis also highlights the need to harness renewable energy in Asia more efficiently and effectively. Currently, many Asian countries heavily rely on fossil fuels. However, by focusing on renewable energy technology and improving energy sharing arrangements, Asia can reduce its dependence on non-renewable resources and promote sustainability. This aligns with SDG 7 (Affordable and Clean Energy).

Moreover, the analysis mentions Chantarapeach Ut, a youth advocate representing a team committed to energy transition. Ut emphasises the importance of adult support and guidance in directing youth efforts towards achieving inclusive energy transition. Collaboration between young people and adults is crucial in driving effective change.

In conclusion, this analysis advocates for supporting youth-led initiatives and involvement in green technology, raising awareness of green jobs, including young voices in decision-making processes, and harnessing renewable energy in Asia. It highlights the need to empower and engage young people to accelerate the development of a sustainable energy future and address climate change. Collaboration between young people and adults is vital in driving inclusive energy transition. This analysis serves as a call to action for governments, organizations, and communities to invest in empowering and engaging young people in achieving a sustainable energy future.

Neil Yorke-Smith

The use of artificial intelligence (AI) in the energy system is already proving to be beneficial in various areas. AI is being utilized in forecasting, system design, real-time balancing, demand response, and flexible pricing. These applications of AI can enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of the energy system, ultimately contributing to a transition away from fossil-based fuels.

However, it is crucial to consider the ethical, legal, social, and economic aspects of implementing AI in the energy sector. While AI offers promising solutions, the societal impacts and implications of an AI energy system are not yet fully understood. Therefore, thorough study and examination of these aspects are necessary to ensure responsible and sustainable implementation of AI in the energy sector. It is also equally important to consider values, trust, justice, and fairness in addition to technical efficiency when incorporating AI into the energy system.

The principles of trustworthiness, justice, and fairness should guide the use of AI in the energy system. Trustworthiness involves establishing meaningful control and collaboration between humans and AI, ensuring that AI systems are reliable and accountable. Justice entails considering whether the benefits derived from AI in the energy system are distributed equally among all stakeholders. Fairness relates to the design of energy markets, ensuring they are efficient, effective, and fair for all participants.

Lessons can be learned from both European and non-European contexts when implementing AI in the energy system. Countries like the Netherlands can benefit from studying the experiences of other nations, while shared resources and concepts from countries like Nigeria can potentially be valuable in the development of AI energy systems.

Another important consideration is the incorporation of societal values into the design process of AI technology. The concept of value-sensitive design emphasizes the importance of incorporating the values of potential customers and society into the design of AI systems. This approach ensures that technology aligns with the values and needs of society, promoting responsible consumption and production.

Efficiency in code design is also seen as crucial for sustainability. By focusing on efficiency, developers can reduce the size and resource consumption of AI algorithms. For example, an app that could be 500 megabytes can be streamlined to 100 megabytes through code efficiency. Recognizing efficiency as a non-functional requirement of AI algorithms can help drive sustainability efforts in the energy sector.

Neil, as an expert in the field, highlights the significance of considering long-term decision-making and the potential evolution of values. Decisions made today can have lasting consequences, especially in terms of infrastructure that can last for decades. Therefore, it is essential to be aware of how present choices can impact the future and how societal values may change over time.

Accountability is a crucial aspect in the discussion of AI and the energy transition. Those who develop AI systems should be held accountable for their actions and the impact of their technology. In addition, society itself should be more accountable towards the energy transition, recognizing its role in promoting sustainable energy practices.

Lastly, global cooperation and learning from each other are vital in the energy transition. By working together and sharing knowledge and experiences, different regions can contribute to the successful implementation and advancement of AI in the energy system. This collaborative approach promotes shared goals of affordable and clean energy, climate action, and sustainable development.

In conclusion, the use of AI in the energy system has the potential to bring substantial benefits, but careful consideration must be given to the ethical, legal, social, and economic aspects. Trustworthiness, justice, and fairness should guide the implementation of AI, and lessons can be learned from diverse contexts. Incorporating societal values, ensuring code efficiency, considering long-term decision-making, and fostering accountability and global cooperation are essential for a successful energy transition.

Alisa Heaver

An analysis of the provided information highlighted several key points discussed by the speakers at the event. One of the main concerns raised was the potential increase in energy demands due to the growth of artificial intelligence (AI). Projections suggest that by 2027, the energy requirements for AI could be equivalent to the entire Dutch economy. This staggering statistic emphasizes the need to address the energy implications of AI expansion and find sustainable solutions to meet the growing demand.

In line with a focus on sustainability, the importance of sustainable digitalisation was also emphasised. The Dutch National Coalition has taken up the task of working towards sustainable digitalisation, recognising the need to balance technological advancements with responsible consumption and production. This approach reflects the commitment to aligning innovation and infrastructure with the principles of sustainability outlined in SDG 9.

Accountability was another key theme discussed during the event. The importance of ensuring accountability in the development and implementation of AI systems, particularly in relation to the energy transition, was highlighted. The conversation was conducted with international representatives, providing a global perspective on these issues. This emphasis on accountability indicates the recognition of the potential risks associated with AI development and the need to establish standards and guidelines to ensure responsible and ethical practices.

Another noteworthy observation from the analysis is the call for increased attention to sustainability within the Global Digital Corporation (GDC). Alisa Heaver, one of the speakers, noted a lack of mention of sustainability in the policy brief of the tech envoy and urged a greater focus on this topic. She emphasized the historical significance of the venue, where the Kyoto Protocol was signed, as a symbolic reminder of the importance of prioritising sustainability in the context of digitalisation and global cooperation.

Lastly, the intersection of sustainability and digitalisation was highlighted as crucial for future progress. The combination of these two areas was recognised as a key factor in driving sustainable development and achieving the SDGs. The increased discussions around sustainability and digitalisation were appreciated, implying a growing awareness of the need to balance technological advancement with environmental responsibility.

In conclusion, the analysis of the provided information reveals key points discussed by the speakers at the event. These include concerns over the energy demands of AI, the importance of sustainable digitalisation, the need for accountability in AI development, the call for increased attention to sustainability within the GDC, and the recognition of the intersection between sustainability and digitalisation for future progress. These insights shed light on the challenges and opportunities presented by AI and underscore the importance of integrating sustainability into technological advancements.

Jessie

The session entitled “Accelerating an Inclusive Energy Transition” commenced with a video, setting the stage for subsequent discussions. Alisa Hever, a senior policy officer at the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate Policy, welcomed participants to the open forum and emphasized the indispensable role of a live moderator despite the potential of artificial intelligence (AI) for innovation.

The session aimed to explore the opportunities and challenges associated with achieving an inclusive energy transition, with a focus on the significance of AI in driving innovation in the energy sector. A diverse panel of experts provided their insights and engaged in stimulating discussions throughout the forum.

One key discussion point centered around the potential of AI in hastening the transition towards a more inclusive energy system. The experts highlighted how AI-powered technologies could enhance energy efficiency, facilitate effective demand management, and support the integration of renewable energy sources. It was underscored that accessible and affordable solutions should be developed, benefiting all communities, particularly marginalized groups.

The panelists also addressed concerns and challenges relating to the implementation of AI in the energy sector. They emphasized the need for robust regulations and ethical frameworks to ensure transparency, fairness, and accountability. Furthermore, addressing potential biases in AI algorithms was deemed crucial to prevent the exacerbation of existing inequalities.

Throughout the session, the importance of collaboration and dialogue between policymakers, industry leaders, and civil society was emphasized. Engaging multiple stakeholders from different sectors and regions was considered vital for fostering inclusive decision-making and ensuring equitable distribution of the benefits of an energy transition.

In conclusion, the session underscored the immense potential of AI in driving an inclusive energy transition. Discussions highlighted the pivotal role of a live moderator in facilitating meaningful exchanges and creating an environment conducive to collaboration. By employing AI in a responsible and inclusive manner, it is possible to overcome challenges and expedite the transition towards a sustainable and equitable energy future for all.

Noteworthy observations from the session included the recognition that technological advancements alone are insufficient for achieving an inclusive energy transition; a holistic approach encompassing social, economic, and environmental dimensions is necessary. Additionally, the session stressed the urgency of addressing equity and social justice issues to prevent the perpetuation of existing disparities in energy access and affordability.

Tim Vermeulen

The energy landscape in Europe is undergoing significant transformations, presenting new opportunities and challenges. One major development is the increasing use of AI in energy management, which has the potential to revolutionise the industry. However, it also introduces biases that can affect energy distribution and access. Wealthier neighbourhoods tend to benefit more from AI in energy supply, but efforts are being made to tackle this bias through transparency and sharing of information by power grid companies.

Open-source technologies are also gaining momentum in Europe’s energy sector, particularly for core grid capabilities. These technologies enhance grid forecasting capabilities, leading to better management and utilisation of energy resources.

Fairness is an important consideration, not just in energy distribution, but also in cutting CO2 emissions. Different regions, countries, and companies have diverse energy mixes and challenges. For example, the Netherlands heavily relies on natural gas due to its domestic availability. It is, therefore, crucial to view these differences from a modular perspective, considering the specific circumstances and needs of each entity.

Transparency, modularity, and technology are key factors shaping Europe’s energy landscape. A modular technology system allows countries to interact with one another, fostering an open and collaborative approach towards a more sustainable energy sector.

Sustainability, fairness, and integrity are highly valued from a European perspective. Access to energy is considered a universal right that should be protected and ensured for all. Maintaining the integrity of the energy system is essential for achieving sustainability and fairness.

Efficiency and awareness are vital in building applications that drive the energy transition. Clean and efficient code development is crucial across sectors as it directly impacts the transition to cleaner energy sources.

Every job has the potential to contribute to a clean and affordable energy future. Jobs across various sectors influence the energy transition, highlighting the importance of a comprehensive approach.

Technology plays a significant role in opening up new possibilities and advancing different areas within the energy sector. The potential of openness and complexity in technology is recognised by experts.

To foster the global energy transition, it is imperative to share knowledge and values on a global scale. Managing the knowledge-based landscape globally is fundamental to driving progress and collaboration in the energy sector.

In summary, Europe’s energy landscape is evolving rapidly, with advancements and challenges. The use of AI, open-source technologies, and the consideration of fairness in energy distribution and CO2 emissions are key focal points. Transparency, modularity, and technology are crucial, and sustainability, fairness, and integrity are highly valued. Efficiency and awareness in application development drive the energy transition, and every job contributes to a clean and affordable energy future. Technology’s potential lies in its openness and complexity, and global knowledge sharing is vital for the energy transition.

Hannah Boute

The Dutch National Coalition for Sustainable Digitisation focuses on the application of artificial intelligence (AI) in relation to energy consumption and efficiency. They believe that in order to accelerate an inclusive energy transition, both the greening of IT (making AI more energy-efficient) and green by IT (using AI to improve energy efficiency) are essential. This approach recognises the potential of AI to contribute positively to the transformation of the energy sector.

In terms of ethics, the coalition adopts a guidance ethics approach to address ethical issues associated with the implementation of AI. They recognise that ethics play a crucial role in the responsible use of AI technologies. To understand these ethical dimensions, public participation is considered crucial. This ensures that the perspectives and concerns of all stakeholders are taken into account, resulting in more informed and ethical decision-making.

Hannah Boute, a proponent of the guidance ethics approach, advocates for its use in evaluating the effects of technology in specific contexts. In the case of AI applied to the energy transition, stakeholders work together to identify both the positive and negative effects of the technology. These identified effects and the underlying values form the basis for designing, implementing, and using the technology. This approach ensures that AI aligns with the values and goals of the energy transition.

The coalition also recognises the importance of sustainability in the design of AI. They have a working group dedicated to developing principles for green software. By integrating sustainability into the design process, they aim to create AI systems that are environmentally friendly and contribute to responsible consumption and production.

International cooperation and input are highly valued by the speakers. They appreciate the contribution and input from an international audience, highlighting the importance of collaboration and partnerships in addressing global challenges. This signifies the coalition’s commitment to engaging with a broad range of stakeholders and leveraging diverse perspectives to drive sustainable digitisation forward.

Overall, the Dutch National Coalition for Sustainable Digitisation emphasises the potential of AI to support sustainable development, while also emphasising the importance of ethics, public participation, and sustainability in its implementation. They recognise that responsible and ethical AI development is crucial for achieving the goals of the energy transition and ensuring a sustainable future.

Jessie:
Thank you. I think we’re ready to start. And we would start our session with a video, I believe. That’s always technical issues. Hi, my name is Jessie, and I am your virtual presenter. I would like to welcome you all at this open forum, Accelerating an Inclusive Energy Transition. Thank you all for coming. Luckily, I will not be your real host today. While artificial intelligence offers many opportunities for innovation, nothing beats a real-life moderator. Give a warm welcome to Alisa Hever, MAG member and senior policy officer at the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate Policy.

Alisa Heaver:
So good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our session. I’ve already been introduced by AI, but I’m really pleased that we don’t have an AI moderator, because probably everybody’s name would be mispronounced then, because my name is actuallyAlisa Heaver, not Hever. We will be talking about sustainability this afternoon, and AI and the energy transition. Today, this morning in the Dutch newspaper, we could read that AI might require as much energy as the Dutch economy requires now, if generated AI will continue to grow as fast as it’s growing now. I believe it was 2027, but I’m not the expert on this topic. We thankfully do have a few experts here in the room and online as well. First of all, we have Hannah Boute. She is from the ECP, which is a platform for coalitions in the Netherlands. She will do an explanation on the guidance of ethics approach and chances of digitalization in the energy transition. She will also do an explanation about Mentimeter, because we want to make this session very interactive, as I already said. Thereafter, we will have a brief presentation from Neil York. He is from the Technical University in Delft, and he’s part of the Dutch Coalition on AI. Thereafter, we will have Tim Vermeulen. He is a strategy board member at Alliander, that is a Dutch energy network operator. He’s part of the Dutch National Coalition for Sustainable Digitalization. Last but definitely not least, we have Chantarapeach Ut. She is from the Organizing Committee of the Youth Internet Governance Forum in Cambodia. We’ve done the introductions, and we’ll go over to Hannah.

Hannah Boute:
Thank you very much, Alisa, and thank you all here today in Kyoto and online for attending this session. My name is Hannah. I’m working for ACP, Platform for the Information Society, where we organize public-private cooperation. I’m involved in two of those public-private cooperation projects. The first is the Dutch National Coalition for Sustainable Digitization, where I’m the secretary, and I’m also involved at the guidance ethics approach, where I’m moderator. Both projects will contribute to this session today on accelerating an inclusive energy transition. First, I will briefly tell you a bit more about the Coalition for Sustainable Digitization, and then I’ll tell you how we will explore the ethical dimensions of the energy transition with help of the guidance ethics approach. The Dutch National Coalition for Sustainable Digitization is a coalition where we work with stakeholders from the quadruple helix, meaning the government, business industries and SMEs, civil society, and universities on the greening of IT, but we also look on greening by IT. In this session, we will actually dive into both, because we will look at how we can accelerate the energy transition with artificial intelligence, but like Alisa also just mentioned, it’s also very important to look at how we can incorporate sustainability into the design of AI. As with every technology, ethics are in play, so it’s important to explore the ethical dimensions. To do that, we need your participation today. I’m going to explain how we’re going to do that. Throughout the presentations, we ask you to listen carefully and identify implicit and also explicit values that are mentioned. I will help you a little bit with how you can identify implicit values with help of the guidance ethics approach, which I will explain briefly in a minute. After my contribution, Doreen will help you to log in into Mentimeter, so keep your phones ready for that. Then the values we identify together will be input for the panel discussion, so we can see how we can sustain them in the European, but also in the Asian perspective on the energy transition. Guidance ethics approach, what’s that? This is an ethical method that actually looks at the effects of a technology in a very specific context. It’s not high over, but it looks at that specific context. Those effects can be positive, they can be negative, and they are identified together with the people and organizations involved with the application of a technology in that specific context. Behind effects, you can find values, and I’m going to show you an example in a second to make that more concrete. If we’ve identified values that are relevant in a specific context, we can actually use them as a starting point to design the technology, to implement the technology in the specific environment we’re talking about, but also in how we use the technology in that environment as a human being. I think I’m missing some slides, actually. That’s okay. I can explain it. I just… Let me see. Yeah. Okay. Can you get my slides? All right. I’m just going to talk you through it. I think that’s going to be fine. The guidance ethics approach was developed from out ACP with the Technical University of Twente, several stakeholders from government, civil society, and business industry. The approach always starts with a technology in a specific context. Today, the technology is artificial intelligence. In the context of the European energy transition and the context of the Asian energy transition. Certain effects can be found in that and you will hear those effects mentioned by the speakers telling you about the transitions today. We can use those values to actually design the technology in such a way that we sustain those values. Oh, there we are. The first stage, technology in context, we ask you to participate to identify the values and then our panel will use the values to look at how we sustain them in the technology, the environment, and as how we use the technology. I’m going to give you a quick example. For instance, hypothetically speaking, if we apply AI on the energy grids to match supply and demand, and there is not enough supply to fulfill all demand, choices have to be made. So, AI doesn’t prioritize in the sense of what is needed, for example, for health. So, a negative effect might be that a crucial asset, for example, a hospital, is left without power. So, behind that effect, we’re actually talking about the value of social responsibility. So, then the question in stage three of this method is how we can design a technology, the implementation of the technology, and the use of it to sustain this value. I hope that’s clear for everyone now. So, short recap, grab your phone, log into Mentimeter, listen carefully to the upcoming speakers if you hear values and enter them into Mentimeter. So, at the end of the contributions of the other speakers, we will have a look at those values you entered, and then we’ll ask them how they are planning or already sustaining the values mentioned by you. Thank you so much.

Alisa Heaver:
If you can’t scan the QR code, then you can also go to menti.com and use the code, oh, use the code, the code, go back to the slide, yes. You can use the code 45732451.

Hannah Boute:
So, the question for you is not to think of values already, but to listen if you hear values mentioned by our speakers. As I explained, sometimes you can find values behind certain effects. Like I just gave the example, an effect might be that an AI is not able to prioritize an asset in the way we as a human would do that. So, that means that the value of social responsibility can be found behind that effect. But don’t worry if you can’t identify that, just concrete values are great as well. Does it answer your question? Cool.

Alisa Heaver:
Okay. Yes? Okay. So, the code, so you can go to menti.com and the code is 45732451. You’re welcome. I hope we’re ready to go to our first presentation or, well, yeah, real presentation from Neil York. Is he with us?

Neil Yorke-Smith:
Yeah. Can you guys hear me?

Alisa Heaver:
Yes. Perfect. Well, no, I don’t see you. I do see your slides, though, but it would be lovely to see your face as well. I can hear you and see you and I’m broadcasting my video. Ah, yes. Now we see you.

Neil Yorke-Smith:
Oh, perfect. All right. Let me see if I can share this.

Alisa Heaver:
But now we don’t, okay, oh, yeah, now we see both your slides and we will see you when you’re talking. Okay. Good luck. Okay. Talk talk. Let’s see if this works.

Neil Yorke-Smith:
Well, hello. Good afternoon, everybody. Or good morning from the Netherlands. It’s nice to be here and to talk with you. So, I’m going to talk about the inclusive energy transition and the role of AI. So, I’ll give a few thoughts and a few examples about it. And as was said, I’m from the Delft University of Technology, where I sit in the computer science department. Let’s see. Great. So, I’d like to put out that energy transition is seen, at least in the Netherlands, as the defining challenge of this generation. There’s perhaps many reasons for this, not least the Netherlands is a low-lying country and feels climate change quite profoundly. And AI is increasingly a part of the energy system. It’s already there. We’re already using AI in different ways. And perhaps Tim, when he gives his contribution next, he’ll also say more things about this. So, I thought it useful to say something about what is AI. AI is perhaps such a broad term and people have different views on it. So, here’s my one slide on, at least from a computer science perspective, as someone who works in AI, what are we talking about when we say AI and then its use in the energy system? So, we have two axes here. I don’t know if you can see my cursor. The top is thinking and the bottom is acting. And the left is humanly and the right is rationally. So, we could do it something like this. You could say, well, AI is, we want to think like humans. We want to have something that’s conscious, you might say. That’s one view of AI, thinking like humans, becoming human-like in that way. Another view is, well, let’s not maybe think like humans, but we want to act like humans. So, to have human-level capability in many areas. So, somehow, I said, be strong AI. Other people will say, well, AI, it’s about being aware of others, the kind of theory of mind. This is more philosophical, perhaps more from a philosophical perspective. And the fourth view that people have is, well, it’s about acting rationally, not acting like a human necessarily, but acting in a way that kind of makes sense. So, you might say this is more like the weak AI view. So, AI kind of is a tool with excellent abilities in certain domains. That’s what the view I’ll be talking about here. So, it’s not about becoming human-like or even acting necessarily like a human, but acting rationally in a given situation. So, this is called the intelligent agent view of AI. Here’s a picture, actually some work from TU Delft, of the control room of the future. And you see there’s no, you know, acting like humans here, but it’s AI helping here with grid management. And again, I think Tim might say some more things about this. So, technology and AI, where they’re already being used, they’re already being used as part of the energy system, today I’d like to say they’re only part of the solution. AI is not the whole solution to the energy transition. And one reason, at least, is that the societal impacts of an AI energy system will be crucial, but we don’t know them yet. We don’t know all of the impacts of AI and energy on society. And here’s a picture from Unsplash, some residents, perhaps, of Amsterdam. And the reason is that the ethical, the legal, the social, the economic aspects, they need to be studied along with the technological aspects. It’s not just, okay, we can put this machine learning into this system here. Well, should we do it? If we did it, how does it affect the regulations? Should the regulations change? How does it affect people? How do they feel about it? What’s the broad implications, not just the purely technical solution? And here’s another nice picture of Amsterdam from Unsplash. So, what we’d want to say is that questions like, well, values, we just heard about the ethical guidance approach, things like values, trust, justice, fairness, these questions, these considerations are as important as efficiency, as technical sustainability, and so on. These non-technical factors. And at least in the view in the Netherlands, we’re still emerging our emphasis, our research on these kind of questions as well. But it is there, it is coming. And so, a good example is a data center here. Okay, we can build a large data center. Well, how does it affect the people around it? How does that affect our societal priorities? What about the poor people in the city who don’t have enough energy? So on and so forth. So, we do see that AI, which are the sales of data and algorithms, it can bring benefits. For example, in forecasting, demand and supply loads, and in system design, efficiency of the operation of the system, real-time balancing, demand response, when we have lots of sustainable generation, flexible pricing, we can do markets in new ways. So, I do see benefits or potential benefits as we transition away from fossil-based fuels. But at the same time, these non-technical, ethical, legal, social questions, I think, are worthy of our consideration. And here’s a quote from the head of energy of the World Economic Forum. And I think that the key aspect here is the principles that help us think about how we govern and design and use responsibly AI in the energy system. And let me mention three principles, perhaps. The first is the trustworthiness of AI. And I think that’s something that we need to think about. Three principles, perhaps. The first is the trustworthiness of the technology. So, trustworthiness, of course, in many levels. But some aspect is this notion of this meaningful control, the citizens have some say in how their data is used, how the system will be designed, the notion of some kind of collaboration between the human and the AI. So, the whole notion is around trustworthiness. It’s a large area, of course, in its own. The second value, then, this notion of justice and justice in the energy system in particular. So, you know, do I benefit more from AI if I have an electric vehicle? But of course, not everybody can afford an electric vehicle. So questions around justice, energy justice in society, even in an affluent country like the Netherlands. And the third principle, perhaps this notion of fairness. So, okay, there’s a market, there’s new types of markets. There’s the sellers, there’s buyers, there’s prosumers of energy. How can we design the market so that it’s efficient, that it’s effective, but also that it takes on board notions of fairness? So these are three principles perhaps to think about as we increasingly use AI in the energy system. Now, I’ve mentioned, of course, the Dutch context, and here’s a map from Wikipedia, just and only to show you where the Netherlands is, and to say it’s this little area here. What else is in the European context? And I think here, Tim will help us. And of course, what’s more broadly in a non-European context? So the question then is, what can the Netherlands learn from other countries as we talk about AI, as we talk about an inclusive energy transition? And perhaps are there things from the Netherlands which will also be useful in other contexts? It’s an open question perhaps for our discussion later. Perhaps one example of this, I think Nigeria, and one area where perhaps the Netherlands can learn is this use of sharing resources together. I just leave that on the floor perhaps for later discussion. So we’ve been talking about our inclusive energy transition, the potential of AI, how AI is already being used, and some of the questions perhaps around values and the non-technology side of it. I’m curious to hear what we will discuss together later. Thank you very much.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you very much, Neil, for this informative presentation. I just wanna go to the audience. Is there any quick question that someone wants to ask as a follow-up on this presentation? If not, then we will directly go to Tim Vermeulen. No? Okay, then we’re set to go to Tim. The floor is yours. Tim, we cannot hear you as of now.

Tim Vermeulen:
And now you can?

Alisa Heaver:
Yes, now we can. Yeah, and we can see you.

Tim Vermeulen:
Perfect, thanks. That’s a big bonus. So hi, everyone. My name is Tim Vermeulen. I’ve already been introduced, head of digital strategy and architecture for a grid operator in the Netherlands. And I will try to give you an EU perspective on the energy transition. It’s a very broad topic, and I’ll try to dive into a few specifics that will help us in a few cases here and dive a bit more into how technology is actually already impacting the landscape so far from a European perspective. Just have six slides, but one of the first slides here is the energy mix in the EU in Europe is changing. So we see more renewables coming onto the market. I’m saying nothing new here, but the energy mix is changing, and that is changing relatively rapidly from a system perspective. So we’ve done the same thing over decades before where we have central generation of electricity and local use of generation. And basically we’re mixing that whole thing up. So from a one-way street, we’re changing the entire energy landscape into a two-way street where everyone and every consumer can also be a prosumer. So you can produce energy and you can use energy. And that’s quite impactful and also leads to a whole new opportunities on jobs, of course. So everyone has a more easy way to contribute to energy transition, which is lovely. And also the next speaker is gonna talk about how people can more easily act in the energy transition from this perspective. We see whole new business models popping up. So a whole new part of possibilities showing up, but also the question of how do these new markets actually become inclusive and how is technology playing a vastly different role in making sure that we can manage this difference energy mix and landscape. And that’s quite relevant because our landscape in Europe is hyper-connected. So if you see, these are the electricity lines and you can see the synchronization zones in parts of Europe in the different colors. But we have a super and hyper-connected grid on a international scale from a European perspective, but also a lot of impact on local scale. So locally also is connected as well. And we’re now focusing a bit on electricity, but there are a lot of energy carriers out there that play a role in the mix and making sure we can meet supply and demand in Europe. But I’ll give some examples on how technology based on this changing energy landscape has to play a role. So with increased use of electricity and people and different energy carriers, we need technology to help us plan how we’re gonna change the grid. And this is a picture of part of the Netherlands. And usually when we expand our grid and make sure that we build new substations, so where the high voltage lines are converted into mid voltage lines. So they go into neighborhoods and so on in the ground for in parts of the Netherlands. We used to do this all by hand and with people making a lots of asset management plans on this location needs to be here so we can meet the supply and demand here. But nowadays we’re asking algorithms to help us with this process. We’re asking algorithms, okay, so if this is changing here, we get a heat network in this city, this is changing in the energy mix for this part of the city, where should the new substation be? And this is very interesting because we’re asking AI, we’re asking algorithms where we should build our substations. And now the fundamental question we already have in parts of Europe is, okay, so how is bias introduced into these decisions? And to give you a very practical example, if we need to decide where we should lay thicker cables or to provide more electricity, if you ask an AI based on all the data from the Netherlands and different neighborhoods, they will say, please do that in the richest areas of the Netherlands because the chance of them buying solar panels or the chance of them buying electric cars is just the highest. So we should lay thicker cables in the richer neighborhoods so we can provide them with electricity and access to the grid more easily so they don’t run into capacity issues. And that’s fundamentally interesting from a technology perspective that an AI says that, but now the question comes to shove. If we’re doing it this way, we’re only increasing capacity in the richer neighborhoods and definitely not in the neighborhoods with less money to spend on EVs and solar panels, and you get less access to the grid for those other areas. So, and that is what AI is introducing and actually what we’re already running into. So trying to remove that bias, trying to look at fairness from a grid perspective point of view has become very, very important. And this is just one example where we’re trying to see where should the next electricity stations be, but there’s gonna be AI all across the board and from data collection to forecasting to active congestion management. So one of the things in Europe, which is really coming up now is the fact that we’ve laid cables into the ground or on the poles above the ground for decades. And of course, as I mentioned before, we haven’t predicted the use of those cables in a two-way street, but only in a one-way, generation to the consumers, instead of consumers all using their solar panels, which is really in a huge uptake in the AU and pushing it back. And that means that the cables are used heavily and we need to manage them so we don’t go over the capacity and we have faulted cables and disruptions. So we need AI across the board to address this situation. But that, again, with the example from before, that means that could be bias in all of the steps of how we manage electricity, the energy mix in the Netherlands. So that requires a lot of attention and a lot of collaboration. So what you see in the European energy landscape is that over the past decades, every energy company, grid company was very much focused on their own operations, but nowadays they have to open up what they’re doing to learn from each other, to share how they can actively use algorithms, but also actively fight this bias. And a great example, you can see the products here already, and that’s my last slide, is that people are using open source more and more, even for core grid capabilities, which was unthinkable 20 years ago, because that was all very proprietary. You have to protect this. But if we all are in this path and managing this complex world, this complex energy mix, we need all different kinds of, and these are all open source products with all grid forecasting capabilities and so on in the Linux Energy Foundation, but there are more open source foundations there. But you see this opening up, and that is something we couldn’t have predicted 20 years ago, and is definitely going on to further technology use and also learn from each other on how we battle this bias in algorithms, but we need to use them anyways to manage the grid effectively. That’s my talk so far.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you. Thank you, Tim. Also perfectly on time. So thank you for being concise on that. Is there anyone who has a particular question? You can stand up to the mic and ask your question, and please introduce yourself.

Audience:
Thank you. My name is Mojtaba Rezakar. Actually, yeah, it works, yeah. Actually, I am MP from Iran’s parliament. It’s an interesting subject that you are discussing here, but you can look at it from different views. First of all, are we going to distribute the, I mean, are we going to consider furnace of energy distribution, or we are going to consider furnace in all subjects? Are we going to talk about just one subject or one subject? Let’s ask it in another way. Are we going to use same technology in all over the world or not? You are talking about the furnace of energy distribution. So if different parts of the world are using different technologies, how do you come up with a solution for this subject? Let’s say we are using a car. Some places are using gas. Some places are using electricity. Even when you use gas, there are different technologies that use different amount of fuel for the car. So if you are using different technologies, and probably it has other effects, are we going to consider those items or not? Let’s say, are we going to consider sameness of technology or not? Are we going to consider the impact of other things? Let’s say the environment, when you use different technologies, perhaps it impacts on the environment as well. Thank you.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you. I’ve heard a lot of questions. Tim, did you catch them sufficiently?

Tim Vermeulen:
Mostly. Okay. Mostly, and maybe we can use some of them for the further discussion at the end. Yes, yes. But to give a short response, and the subject on fairness, just on one side of distribution, of course, makes no sense. So it’s fairness across the board. But also if you see everyone’s using different technologies, not only in different parts of the world, but even within countries, even within companies at some points, we use different technologies. So the question begs is, can we look at everything from a modular point of view, and where every part is trying to assess fairness in their own way, but also look at the system as a whole? And this is the challenge for this integral approach. But the question still remains, we need to look at fairness across the board. So not only from an energy distribution perspective, but also if we want to cut CO2 emissions in the Netherlands and in Europe and globally, that also needs to work together. And every country have different challenges and different energy mix. For the Netherlands, we use a lot of natural gas because we have the natural gas bubble in our own country, which we could use. So that gives a whole different perspective on how and what changes we make in terms of CO2 and emissions than the country next to us. But as long as we’re as transparent as possible within our technology and be able to make it as modular as possible that we can interact with the rest, well, that’s the name of the game, but also there’s no definite solution. So that’s why we need to collaborate and work in an open way together to get there step-by-step.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you, Tim. Well, then I’m gonna go next to me, Peach, sorry. Well, up to you, the floor is yours. Do you want the mic?

Chantarapeach Ut:
Hello, everyone’s on site and online. I’m sorry, I’m feeling a bit under the weather. So if you hear a little bit of voice problem, I’m very sorry in advance. I’m very sorry in advance. So my name is Chantarapeach Ut. One of the organizing committee from Cambodia Youth Internet Governance Forums, which was host and held last month. And I’m also currently pursuing a green job as a space and sustainable operation officer under Impact Hapnumping. And I hope to still pursue green job in the future as well. And today I’ll be talking about how we can unlock Asian’s green energy future through youth. So why is green energy is important? So according to the IPCC report that I went through, it highlights that the increasing global CO2 emissions is at a pre-descended levels in which it leads us to need, it needs to be energy transition need to be fastened. As nine out of 10 Asian country currently have set net zero target, but still many of them are one of the most vulnerable to climate change, in which among these nations, 650 million people resigned it. So the need for energy transition is very needed to supply the high rise in energy demands in which we face a lot of challenges while doing that for green energy transitions in Asian context. Because as you know, each country has different infrastructures and each nation has their own respective energy structure and system and also resources to supply those energy. So transitioning might require a huge amount of financing, especially to the developing country. So they might need a lot of funds or support in technology transfer or knowledge improvements from the neighboring country or the developing country, in the regions or outside the region as well. And also, while changing might be needed, changes will always affect things. So it might affect the existing jobs, if the existing economic opportunity as well, which need time to adapt. So which is why it might take a lot of time to do so, but I’ll raise a few case on how youths can contribute to this development. I will focus on youths instead. So first of all, green energy. So as you see on the slide, these are some technology that are currently being invented by youths. It could include green energy engineering, smart agriculture, renewable energy optimizations, air quality monitoring, which is green buildings, climate modeling, eco-friendly transportation. These are all the technology that are currently being developed in a very early stage. So yes, these are the youth-led technology that needed support to be turned into reality and for their innovation and creativeness to blossom. So when you support them, you create entrepreneurship mindsets in our society in order to push our youth forward even further. So investment in youth and their potential to our society is very crucial at this point. And moreover, they can also contribute by pursuing green jobs. They can advocate for green tax or start recycling their e-waste or the previous generation waste, yeah? And some of them might become a green AI researcher or sustainability data analyst, renewable energy engineer, clean tech researcher. So these are all the type of green job that youths can pursue in the future and need everyone’s support in raising awareness on these green jobs. So when you increase the value of green job, more youths will start to realize that job that they are pursuing are actually making impact to their society and it can either be positive or negative. And some people might just work to make end mids, but some people are working to actually make an impact. So I want to start making or raising awareness for youth to realize that they can also make an impact while also earning money to sustain their life, yeah. And after green job, we also need to start raising awareness for them to pursue green job because for them to do that, they also need a lot of exposure. For in my contact in Cambodia, I major in international relations and economic science. I was not aware of green jobs at all until I started working at Impact Hub, which I applied for the role without knowing it is a green job. So this is how clueless I am in terms of a youth. So this is my youth perspective. This is why I want us all here to start emphasizing the importance of green jobs. So now let’s move to the next one, which is youth green internet initiative. So aside from green job, we can also start making platform or events that raise those kinds of awareness. For instance, I am part of Cambodian youth internet governance forums. This is the local internet governance forum, which are hosted around the world. And it is the The Internet Government Forum was held for the first time in Cambodia, which is very surprising when other countries have had it for so long. So, this shows how slow we are in terms of technology and AI transitioning. So, yes, we need a lot more even like this in the regions, especially also in Cambodia and in other states. Yeah, and more work for youths to actually voice out their opinions and voice out their concerns. And they can actually go to the local conference of youth, which is quite held around in each nation. And it is held under UNGO, the Office of Children and Youth Constituency, which is under the United Nations Frameworks of Convention on Climate Change. And when you get in one state to actually come up with a statement, those statements are then forward to the Conference of Youths, which is the regional one. And once it’s concluded in the Conference of Youth, it will also become part of Conference of Party, COP28, which is going to be held on 13 November until 12 December this year. So, yeah, this is a platform in which youths can actually learn and also become aware of the internet security while also raising about sustainability and the environment. And for this case, Alcoa is also being held for the first time in Cambodia as well, seeing this is very slow for us. Everything is the first time. So, yeah, I will try my best to raise awareness on this. And I’ll try to raise about AI cybersecurity. So, since youths need a lot of knowledge on it because they are the ones who currently use a lot of internet. And I believe harnessing a defense line on cybersecurity is one of the most important things for them. And by making them become part of this conference will allow them the opportunity to be part of the decision-making process as well. And it’s a space for them to voice their perspective, concern, and idea related to digital policy on online rights and while advocating for climate change. So, yes, I’ll share you what our neighbor country, actually, they already held the Alcoa this year. And this is their statement from the events. They want to call for Vietnamese youth to send relevant party to the COP28 conference. So, I actually applied for this as well. And I hope I get selected to be part of it, to share about AI as well. And from Cambodia YIGF, we also got youth testimonial in which I learned that local IGF is very important as it’s equipped with knowledge on internet governance and its impact in the world that we’re living in. So, I sincerely hope that I raise the important views through my presentation. And I hope you will be more involved and interested. Yes, I hope that sustainability field will be more acknowledged and we could fast-track the inclusive energy transition in the future. Yes, that’s all for me.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you. Is there anyone who has a particular question for Peach? No? Okay. I just wanted to say, besides all the initiatives that you have mentioned, even though those are all youth initiatives, there is a very good international initiative as well that is, well, for youth and a bit older people. And that’s called the Coalition for Digital Environmental Sustainability. And that’s… Oh, I see someone standing up for a question.

Audience:
I actually don’t have a question for Peach specifically, but probably the question for every speaker. So, actually, my name is Wan Kwan. I am from the software development industry. And I believe in clean code. I believe that clean code will consume less energy than the bad codes. And I believe that when AI comes, it will generate… It will consume a lot of energy. So, do you guys think about that? Talk about it in the policy-making process as well? Because AI can help us achieve in the other areas, but it also provides challenges as well. So, I hope you get my question.

Hannah Boute:
Thank you. I kind of almost feel that this is a value in coding, but I might be wrong on this. But if you would allow me to only ask Hannah at the moment, so we can then move on to the second part of the presentation of Hannah. Thank you so much. That’s definitely a value. We already discussed today incorporating sustainability in the design of artificial intelligence. And within the Coalition for Sustainable Digitization, we also have a working group that’s looking at principles for green software. But I’m pretty sure that our expert on artificial intelligence, Neil, will get back on that in a second during our panel discussion. So, I suggest we move on to that one.

Alisa Heaver:
Yeah, that’s why I also gave the floor to you, because the next part is also up to you, Hannah.

Hannah Boute:
All right. So, I think we gathered some values. There they are. And so, I would like to ask Tim and Peach and Neil to have a look at those values. I think we leave them on the screen, right? Yeah. All right. So, then I’m going to turn to Tim first. So, I see some values, sustainability, fairness, energy, justice, trustworthiness. From the European perspective, Tim, which values do you consider most relevant? And what is currently being done or can be done to sustain these values in the energy transition from the European perspective?

Tim Vermeulen:
Yeah, I think, and I will address the question of clean code we can get to later. But if you look at the center, I think we see a few of them that are definitely very prevalent from a European perspective already, or at least from my perspective, for sustainability and fairness. And maybe integrity is one of the values which I’d also want to see. Because also, access to energy is a right. It’s something we need to protect. It’s something we need to make sure that everyone has that access. So, integrity as a system as a whole. I don’t care if you’re a grid operator or energy producer or a prosumer in the world. Integrity of the entire system is something we need to protect in order to foster sustainability and to protect the fairness of the system. So, that is something that I would want to add to the core of the values.

Hannah Boute:
All right, thank you so much. Piet, then I’d like to turn to you. So, looking at these values, which one do you consider most relevant from the Asian perspective? And how are you currently sustaining those values from your perspective?

Chantarapeach Ut:
For me, in the context of Asia, green energy transition, I believe that harnessing renewable energy more efficiently and storing it more effectively would be the value that I think Asians should focus on. As currently, we are using fossil fuel and most of the region are related in terms of sharing those energy. And as everyone may know, currently, there’s a little bit turbulence with Ukraine and Russia. So, that’s also tip off the energy sharing within our region as well. So, I think Asians should focus more on renewable energy in order for them to supply and sustain their energy in the future as well. Yes, thank you.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you so much. Then, final panel question to Neil. And Neal, after answering this question, I’d also would like to ask you to go into the question about energy efficiency coding within AI. But first to the panel question. So, yeah, we heard the replies of Tim and Peach with regards to relevant values and how to sustain them from both their perspectives. So, from the perspective on how AI can help to realize an inclusive energy transition, how do you think that both perspectives could straighten each other to sustain the named values?

Neil Yorke-Smith:
Yeah, I think it’s an important question. So, I guess one route of technology is that the values are more of the kind of the capitalism or the more the marketplace. So, we want to deliver some value to some people. And so, we develop technology to do this. Then we want to sell this and so on. A second way of perhaps designing technology is what’s called value sensitive design, which is we think about what are the values of the potential customers, but more broadly of society, and how do we incorporate those values in the design process? So, value sensitive design. And I think this can be one way to sustain values which certain stakeholders, society might think are important. And linked with this, I think there’s also the notion of that there’s some sensitivity to how values can change. So, particularly in longer term decisions. So, for example, Tim mentioned infrastructure decisions. You know, if we’re making decisions now, which will be with us for 20, 30, 40 years, then not only what are today’s values, but also potentially how might those values evolve in the future. So, this is a hard question. This is not my speciality. But I think it’s to recognize that some of the decisions we make now have future consequences, and at least to be aware of that. Then turning to the second question, particularly at the values of efficiency. So, if I understood what the question was about, it’s when we have code, we have algorithms, we have AI systems, having more efficient systems, so better designed code, cleaner code, how can that contribute also to questions about sustainability? And I agree that is a value. In fact, just yesterday, I was talking with some people about, you know, you’re doing a tech startup, you’re bringing this new AI technology. What are the values? Is it indeed, you know, time to market, disruption, potential profit, and so on? Or is some of the values, maybe we go slower when we’re developing our systems, we’re implementing our code, because we take on this non-functional requirement of the efficiency of, let’s say, the AI algorithm. And to me, this is interesting, because I don’t know to what extent people think about this. So, I don’t know, you know, you download an app onto your phone, and the app is, you know, 500 megabytes. But actually, maybe it could only be 100 megabytes if the developers took more time and, you know, focused on the size and the efficiency of things. So, I think it’s an important question to raise.

Tim Vermeulen:
And maybe to add, I also think that the work Peach is doing, the awareness part of looking at how you impact on a societal level, I think that’s definitely a part still not always taken into account into developing algorithms across the world. I can see that already in my company, if we build something, we want to build it to have functional impact. And then we also have to ask ourselves, is the code clean enough? How does it run efficiently? And to look at that from a board perspective, whatever you’re doing, so every job can be a clean job, to put it in the phrases you used earlier. I think, so there’s work in awareness, I saw awareness on the screen as well, is still something we need to work on in the broader sense of the word. And not only people working in energy, but working in any sector who’s building any kind of application, because you’re impacting the energy transition in one way or another anyways. So, awareness is probably a big thing there.

Alisa Heaver:
Yes, it’s done. Yes, thank you, Tim and Neil, for your contributions on answering those questions. I am really pleased with the amount of people who have handed in a few words. I just want to recognize that, first of all. Is there anyone else who has a particular question on the presentations given? No? Do you have anything more to add on the word cloud?

Hannah Boute:
I think it’s very valuable input, since we’re here today with an international audience, and I’m really pleased to see your input on values, on a very important topic that is of international importance. So, I just want to emphasize that, yeah, that kind of input is something we need. And international cooperation on these kind of topics is very important. So, thank you so much for your input.

Alisa Heaver:
Yes, well, if there aren’t any other questions anymore, I would like to ask Tim if he had, well, maybe let’s say it like this. If any of the speakers want to have any closing remarks, I would want to give them one minute each for key takeaways.

Chantarapeach Ut:
Okay. So, one minute. Okay, I’ll try and make the most of it. So, yeah, I just hope that everyone here got to learn a lot from the sessions, and I just hope that I make an impact as a youth. And I’m just here on behalf of my team, and I sincerely hope to see a more inclusive energy transition in the future. And in order to do that, not only youth will be the important stakeholder, but also the adults and the people who are on the high up as well that need to help in giving us direction and shaping it for us to actually follow, and also to help them and support them in the future. And I sincerely hope that everyone would give us more opportunity to take part in this kind of event in order to learn and also to improve our knowledge on this as well. Thank you.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you, Peach. Tim, your final remarks.

Tim Vermeulen:
Yeah, so as I mentioned in my story, I see a tremendous force to opening up everything we’re doing from a technology perspective, but also from a complexity perspective. And that’s not a bad thing. That means that we can all more easily contribute to what we’re doing here, whether it’s open source, whether it’s sharing values in different areas to foster the energy transition. So seeing all that open up and seeing where technology is also forcing us, I think is a big opportunity for everyone to make sure that we’re on the right value track and do value-based design, as Neil said. I’m hopeful for the future where we are managing this landscape, not only in Europe, but in the entire world and sharing that knowledge. So that’s my last two cents.

Alisa Heaver:
Thanks, Tim. Neil, last but not least.

Neil Yorke-Smith:
Yes, thank you. Yeah, I think a value that’s also in the discussion is the notion of accountability. So accountability of AI systems, accountability of those who develop them, accountability more generally in society towards the energy transition. And perhaps to add also, as Tim said, there is a global perspective on this. And so are also European countries accountable to other parts of the world? Because we’re interdependent. And I hope we have things to learn from each other, but also to strive together towards the energy transition.

Alisa Heaver:
Thank you, Neil. I would then want to thank all the speakers, all the tech team here for ensuring that this session went really, really smooth. And I particularly want to thank the speakers for some of them for waking up really early in the morning. Because they are in a quite different time zone. And yesterday in the main hall, I asked the panel there on the GDC, if they could ensure that there would be a bit more about sustainability in the GDC. Because it was very, very little what’s been mentioned in the policy brief of the Secretary General, no, sorry, from the tech envoy. And in that main hall, that’s where the Kyoto Protocol was signed. Or the final negotiations took place. And I think we’re in this incredible building here. And we should think about the future in that sense. And I think it’s wonderful that we’re having more and more discussions about sustainability and digitalization and making that combination. And I think we had a great session here on accelerating an inclusive energy transition. So with these final notes, I want to thank you all for attending this session. And please feel free to chatter around and exchange on information. Because I think that’s where the most interesting discussions come from. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.