DC-Interplanetary: Toward the Interplanetary Internet –the digital governance–

Summary

This discussion focused on the development and governance of interplanetary networks, particularly in the context of space exploration and communication. Vint Cerf introduced the history of interplanetary communications, dating back to 1964 with NASA’s Deep Space Network. He emphasized the importance of governance as space activities become increasingly commercialized.

Yosuke Kaneko discussed the concept of the interplanetary internet, highlighting key principles such as common protocols, open forums, and multi-stakeholder policymaking. He stressed the need to inherit good practices from terrestrial internet governance. Samuel Grasic explained Delay Tolerant Networking (DTN) and its applications beyond space, including in remote terrestrial areas and underwater environments.

Professor Mohamed-Slim Alouini discussed terrestrial applications of DTN technology, such as providing non-real-time internet access to remote villages and underwater communication. The speakers emphasized that while interplanetary communication faces challenges like long delays, the technologies developed can benefit underserved areas on Earth.

The discussion touched on governance issues, including the need for a framework to manage collaborative efforts in space and address commercial interests. Vint Cerf highlighted the importance of considering existing space treaties and the need for new governance models as space activities expand.

Questions from the audience addressed topics such as equitable access to space technologies, human rights considerations, and international cooperation. The speakers emphasized the open nature of the interplanetary network architecture and invited participation from diverse stakeholders, including those from non-spacefaring nations.

Overall, the discussion underscored the importance of proactive governance planning for interplanetary networks and the potential for these technologies to benefit both space exploration and terrestrial applications.

Keypoints

Major discussion points:

– The origins and development of interplanetary networking and communication

– Technical challenges and solutions for interplanetary communication, like delay-tolerant networking (DTN)

– Terrestrial applications and benefits of technologies developed for space communication

– Governance considerations for interplanetary internet and commercialization of space

– Inclusivity and access issues related to interplanetary networking

Overall purpose:

The goal of this discussion was to introduce the concept of interplanetary internet to the Internet Governance Forum, explain its technical aspects and challenges, highlight potential terrestrial applications, and begin a dialogue on governance issues that will arise as space exploration and commercialization increase.

Tone:

The tone was primarily informative and educational, with speakers providing background and technical details in an accessible way. There was also an underlying tone of excitement about the possibilities of interplanetary networking. During the Q&A, the tone became more interactive and collaborative, with speakers encouraging participation and emphasizing the need for multi-stakeholder involvement in shaping the future of interplanetary internet governance.

Speakers

– Roberto Gaetano: Session moderator

– Vint Cerf: Internet pioneer, involved in interplanetary networking project

– Yosuke Kaneko: Chair of the IPN SIG (Interplanetary Networking Special Interest Group)

– Samo Grasic: Lead of the pilot project working group of Interplanetary Special Network Internet Group

– Mohamed-Slim Alouini: Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST), UNESCO Chair focusing on connecting the unconnected

Additional speakers:

– Filipe Santos: Software developer from Brazilian Internet Steering Committee

– Aouke: Works for KPMG in the Netherlands

– Kanbaro Sainbro: From the United Kingdom Foreign Ministry

– Alan Veloso: International cooperation advisor for the Brazilian Space Agency

– Kunle Olorundare: President of Internet Society in Nigeria, member of special interest group in Internet Society

Revised Summary of Interplanetary Networks Discussion

Introduction:

This Internet Governance Forum (IGF) session, moderated by Roberto Gaetano, focused on the development and governance of interplanetary networks. Experts discussed technical challenges, governance issues, and potential terrestrial applications of space communication technologies.

1. Origins and Development of Interplanetary Networking:

Vint Cerf, an Internet pioneer, introduced the history of interplanetary communications, dating back to NASA’s Deep Space Network in 1964. He emphasized the importance of governance as space activities become increasingly commercialized, highlighting the need to consider existing space treaties and develop new governance models.

Yosuke Kaneko, Chair of the Interplanetary Networking Special Interest Group (IPN SIG), discussed the concept of the interplanetary internet. He highlighted key principles such as common protocols, open forums, and multi-stakeholder policymaking. Kaneko also mentioned a recent WRC resolution on lunar frequencies, indicating progress in interplanetary communication regulations.

2. Technical Challenges and Solutions:

Samo Grasic, lead of the pilot project working group of the Interplanetary Special Network Internet Group, explained Delay Tolerant Networking (DTN) and its applications. DTN addresses challenges in deep space communication, such as long delays and disruptions, and has potential applications in various terrestrial and underwater scenarios.

Professor Mohamed Slim Alouini from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, who holds a UNESCO Chair focusing on connecting the unconnected, discussed energy efficiency and wake-up receiver technologies for remote sensors. He also suggested the use of free space optics as a potential solution for spectrum scarcity in interplanetary communication.

3. Terrestrial Applications and Benefits:

The speakers highlighted the potential for interplanetary network technologies to address terrestrial development challenges. Specific examples include:

– Providing non-real-time internet access to remote villages

– Underwater communication

– Supporting sensor networks in remote areas

– A reindeer herder project utilizing DTN technology, as mentioned by Samo Grasič

These applications demonstrate how technologies developed for space communication can benefit underserved areas on Earth and explore remote terrestrial regions.

4. Governance Considerations:

The discussion touched on several governance issues, including:

– The need for a framework to manage collaborative efforts in space

– Addressing commercial interests in the context of the Outer Space Treaty

– Adopting governance models and technical standards similar to those used in the terrestrial Internet

– The importance of multi-stakeholder governance and open standards for interoperability

Yosuke Kaneko mentioned COPUOS (Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space) as a forum for non-spacefaring nations to participate in discussions about space governance.

Vint Cerf noted the limited capacity of deep space communication resources, suggesting potential constraints on access that will need to be addressed in future governance frameworks.

5. Pilot Projects and Participation:

Samo Grasic discussed the pilot project working group and encouraged participation from interested individuals. He mentioned that people can get involved by joining the IPN SIG and participating in their mailing lists and meetings. The ipnsig.org website was cited as a resource for learning about DTN and interplanetary networking.

Conclusion:

The discussion underscored the importance of proactive governance planning for interplanetary networks and the potential for these technologies to benefit both space exploration and terrestrial applications. Key takeaways included the need for multi-stakeholder governance models, the potential of DTN technology for connecting remote areas, and the importance of addressing technical challenges in deep space communication.

Unresolved issues include developing legal and regulatory frameworks for space commercialization and allocating limited deep space network resources. The speakers encouraged continued development of DTN and bundle protocols through collaborative efforts and invited participation from diverse stakeholders in shaping the future of interplanetary internet governance.

Roberto Gaetano: I didn’t think that we needed, but apparently, we start thinking, well we’re ready here online. So good afternoon. As often with the first session in the split rooms, we have some details to fix. I hope I can, I hope everybody can hear me, remotely I mean. Can we start? Okay. So this is the section. Can I take your? Hello? We can hear you. Go ahead, Roberto. It’s been served. Okay. I see that now you can hear me. I was apologizing for the delay. This is the first session in the split rooms, and we had some setup problems. We will be talking about the interplanetary networks and having a focus on the internet governance. The first speaker is Vint Cerf, that doesn’t need an introduction. He will talk about the origin of the project, why the interplanetary networks are important, and what were the whereabouts that brought to the start of this project. Vint, you have the floor.

Vint Cerf: Thank you so much, Roberto, and good afternoon, everyone. I’m speaking to you from Washington, D.C., in my basement office. It’s a pleasure to join you. I just wish I could be there in person. Let me just give you a brief history of this project. Interplanetary communications began in 1964 when the Deep Space Network was built by NASA with the intent that these large 70-meter antennas be used to communicate with spacecraft that could go anywhere in the solar system and perhaps even beyond. As some of you know, there are two spacecraft that are well outside of the solar system now, Voyager 1 and Voyager 2. The space program continued. Landings on the moon happened and so on. By 1997, the project successfully landed a small rover on Mars, the so-called Sojourner. There had been another successful landing in 1976 of two Viking spacecraft, and then for 20 years, nothing worked. It was very exciting to see the Sojourner land successfully on Mars, and I was so excited about it, I flew out to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California to meet with the team that was handling communications for the 1997 Sojourner mission. And at this point, several of us began speculating about what we should be doing that we are going to need 25 years later, and we concluded that we should start on the design and implementation of a solar system internet. And so that project has been going on. In the 2010s, the project expanded outside of NASA and included the Japanese space agency JAXA, the Korean space agency KARI, and the European space agency ESA. And since that time, during the 10s and 2020s, the four space agencies have been collaborating together with the Consultative Committee on Space Data Systems. Their primary focus of attention has been on the design of a new suite of protocols called the Bundle Protocols to overcome some of the challenges of deep space operation. We’ll hear considerably more about that. The reason I wanted to take this moment for a preamble is also to say that the reason that we’re at the Internet Governance Forum is because governance has become a very critical part of the project. As we look towards commercialization, and many of you are well aware that there are commercial companies, SpaceX, for example, and Intuitive Machines, just to name two, that are actively pursuing activities in space. And in particular, NASA has offered to purchase habitats and the like, and even to buy the product of mining on the moon. And it’s the consequence of commercialization which leads us to the importance of governance. And so the point of this session, in part, is to bring you up to speed on where we are technically, and also the demands that we now foresee for governance as a consequence of commercialization. So, that concludes my little preamble. Let’s move on to the next speaker.

Roberto Gaetano: I can’t hear. Channel three. Yeah. But it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Vint, for your introduction. And now I’ll give the floor to Kaneko Yusuke, who is the chair of the IPN SIG, and who will talk about the activities of the IPN SIG and how the work proceeds. Kaneko, you have the floor. Okay.

Yosuke Kaneko: Good afternoon, everyone. And I am sitting in Washington, D.C., as well. And I hope I had joined you in Riyadh, but unfortunately, I’ll be connecting remotely today. But it’s a pleasure to be here. And good afternoon, everyone, to whomever made it to this session. So, as Vint just set the floor, I want to briefly kind of address the concept of the interplanetary internet a bit more in detail. For some of you, this might sound like science fiction, but this kind of interplanetary internet has been around for quite some time, as just Vint mentioned. And many of the space agencies around the world have been putting a tremendous effort into turning this concept into reality. And today, we stand on the cusp of an exciting reentry into space exploration again. We’re heading back to the moon, more than 25 years after the first inception of the interplanetary internet concept. And over 50 years since it first landed humans on the moon. And that was back in 1969. And this time, for our next visit to the moon, we are going with international partnership and along with the industry. And this is absolutely the way the interplanetary internet will also be built. And it will advance with the private sector’s involvement from its early stages of development. And we really want to realize a common and open and shared network infrastructure, even in interplanetary space. So, next slide, please. So, one of the examples toward this endeavor, which is an acronym of lunar internet, which is a collaborative architecture and framework to provide communication and also positioning and navigation services for activities on the lunar surface. So, the lunar net will essentially become the foundational infrastructure for us to communicate with the astronauts. and the moon and the infrastructure that we deploy on the lunar surface. And what’s fascinating is that the development is actually moving forward along with the industry, specifically with the recently selected intuitive machines toward this endeavor. Slide please. So in order to build this interplanetary internet in space, we kind of asked ourselves, what are the key governance principles that we need to pay attention to? And what are the lessons we can learn from history of the internet and the evolution of internet governance? The general approach we sought about was to inherit the good lessons and the good DNA that has matured over the long history of the internet to the model of the interplanetary internet. And so next slide please. So our dynamic coalition came up with several key principles that might inform the future of the interplanetary internet. And I would have very familiar language in here, such as having a common way of doing things. We know we need technical approaches like communication protocols and standards to realize interplanetary networking, similar to how TCPIP became the global standard for every transmission on this planet. And open forums, such as the mechanisms we have at the IETF will become a real critical enabler to refine the networking technology. And the hierarchical management, a way in which we manage identifiers like IP addresses and domain names in the internet will also become an important aspect in space networking architectures. And of course, the multi-stakeholder policymaking process, which is probably the most important part that I want to emphasize today is a unique governance model, which is at the heart of internet governance. And to me, this made the internet so successful and sustainable as we know it today. So we consider this as a critical DNA that we want to inherit from the internet toward the longevity and the sustainability of this network infrastructure in space. Next slide, please. So regarding, talking a little bit about the technical aspects, when we’re talking about interplanetary communication, there are two major problems that needs to be solved. Problem number one is that the speed of light is too slow. It takes 20 minutes to send a signal to Mars and another 20 minutes to get a reply back. So you need to compensate somehow with these high delays. And then the second problem is planetary motion. The earth and the moon and the planets always move around. So sometimes we call this orbital mechanics, and that means that a spacecraft can easily hide behind a planet and your communication can be easily disrupted. So TCPIP doesn’t work very well in these scenarios. So these issues needs to be addressed technically. And there’s a technology called the DTN and the bundled particle that Vint just mentioned is one of the particle suites that actually implements this networking technology. And I think you will hear more from my next speaker Samuel on the developments on DTN. And I think I have one more chart and that should be the last. Yes, and I just want to draw your attention to the governance report that we have published last year, which really gives more details in our thinking process and recommendations on how to approach governance in the interplanetary internet. And you can also find a postcard of our dynamic coalition if you go to our booth at the venue. So don’t miss that out as well. And I think I’ll stop here and turn it over to Roberto. Thank you.

Roberto Gaetano: Thank you, Kaneko, also for making my task easier because now Samuel doesn’t need to have any introduction. He will bring us back to earth and explain why people should care about this. And this is not so abstract and far away how it looks. Samuel, you have the floor. Thank you, Roberto. And welcome everyone.

Samo Grasic: Okay, so, yeah, my name is Samuel Graszczyk and I’m currently the lead of the pilot project working group of Interplanetary Special Network Internet Group. And I tell you a bit my slides actually because, I mean, after my experience that I got from the booth, because quite often people are asking, this is, you know, very futuristic. It’s kind of we’re looking really far in the future. Why does this concern me? So I will try to maybe very briefly address this question by maybe just explaining DTN protocol is and what can it do. So I think one of the very important aspect that sometimes I think it’s a bit overlooked when we talk about DTN as a building block for the interplanetary internet, is actually the aspect that this is an overlay protocol, which means that in this case, I would like to illustrate, for instance, we can actually run DTN bundle protocol over today’s internet. We can just use regular links as we do it right now. We can actually, yeah, we can use it for the high speed, high bandwidth links, optical links. So it’s actually quite universal. Of course, we can use it as well for the deep space where we have quite limited resources or limited bandwidth, really high delays, a lot of disruptions. It can handle deep space because it was, yeah, initially designed for. And then I would like to move to a bit more unconventional, maybe links and ways of communication that is there down with a snowmobile and antenna attached to the snowmobile. So this is actually from the project that I work where we actually use the LoRa, not LoRaWAN, but LoRa radio links for a really kind of a long distances, to cover really long distances in northern Sweden where we basically drag the entire network in a very nomadic fashion so people can move this network. And yeah, so this population of Sami reindeer herders has actually adopted the DTN technology and they can actually benefit from it already today. So they can actually track the reindeer and exchange messages with each other, even in areas where they don’t have conventional internet technology. I would like to then go a bit further back in time. The other project we work with actually, with the same population, we actually use the helicopter as a data mule. So we had that kind of small devices. Helicopters were actually flying in and out to these really remote villages that are still today not covered with the conventional internet. And people were able to send messages. Very delayed, it was actually literally maybe six to seven hours of delay for every message we sent, but it’s better than nothing. And then I would kind of like to finish maybe with two maybe a bit more obscure, kind of a transfer of data, for instance, having the USB stick and carry it around or having the large storage devices, it’s actually amazing how much we can actually do. If you put a hard drive, put it on a plane and fly it to another part of the world. So it’s actually a really high bandwidth option. And yeah, DTM bundle protocol can actually handle that. And the last one is just for illustrative purposes. I think we can use DTM over the smoke signal. So we can go back in time. We can actually apply it in action and thinking about developing a smoke modulator that would actually allow us to illustrate that DTM bundle protocol could handle that. And then why is this important? Why is this overlay characteristic so important? So on the top of this slide, you can actually see some of the potential users of this technology. And of course, space industry is one of the first one that comes to mind. As was already mentioned before, mining, it’s surely something that’s gonna be probably actual really soon. And I think this is, I think, a point in time where actually there’s a lot of commercialization happening in space and surely this will be very actual. I mentioned previously this remote areas and all the people that can actually benefit from this. Logistic is one of these. And lastly, maybe for instance, There are a photo of a scientist collecting the data from the probe. So I think, and this is where I think in my personal opinion, I mean, magic happens when it comes to DTN, because we can really seamlessly actually connect any of these users together. So that means, for instance, you know, if you’re a scientist collecting data from the boy somewhere using the USB stick and carrying it, if you apply a bundle protocol, you can actually use it, and for instance, you know, to collect the data from the deep space probe. So in some software that you’re using to collect the data for one thing, you can actually use it from that. So, and if you envision, for instance, you know, how the mining industry might move to the space, as we get more and more commercial actors into it, they will probably not be skilled in deep space communication, and applying DTN for their services already today, they can use them, they can harden them, and then in future, when the time will come, they can actually simply apply this technology in space applications. So this is kind of a brief to how I want benefits of DTN from another perspective. And my next slide is about the pilot project working group, what we do there, how we can join and things like that. So one of the main objective of the pilot project working group is to actually build operational DTN network, actual machines, actual protocols, and actually spread it globally. And it’s actually quite an interesting exercise. It’s actually brought, it actually brings in many issues that maybe was not really kind of seen or foreseen at the beginning, but, you know, it brings different issues from technical, you know, we need to adopt, we need to change the protocols sometimes, or get new mechanisms to, for instance, to get the neighbor discovery, to mitigate some of the bad kind of practices maybe from the building the internet. So we are currently in a stage where we’re kind of, we’re building the kind of second generation of our operational network where we kind of adopt it a bit and develop more mechanisms. And we do kind of cover, I mean, the entire globe, so we kind of encircle it. Just I see some colleagues here, like there is no Saudi, but I think it’s going to appear next week as we will discuss. So and yeah, I mean, all this kind of practice actually came, I mean, forced us to actually develop certain, or actually push some of even the governance issues. For instance, you know, right now we are actually trying to get the IPN, so it’s actually every node in the NTIA network gets its own identifier, and it’s kind of quite analogous to the IP address, but here it’s actually called IPN, so it’s, and for instance, to allocate those, there is a process, because before it was kind of flat space, now we’re trying to find, you know, how we will actually distribute these IPN numbers, and for that we will need to set up administrative authorities, so there’s really a certain governmental issue that needs to be addressed. In the group, actually, if you join the group, you can actually get the free IPN, this number, so if you would want to join, we’re developing, we’re actually adding some services as well to it, so we’re trying different services, adopt the internet services that we know from today, from the internet, and make them compatible so they can actually run more of the DTN. Some of the best projects were, so I mean, this project I mentioned before with the Raining Hearse, there were sensor networks that we’re developing, so DTN has quite a big potential, at least in my personal opinion, in the sensor networks, and especially low power applications, because you don’t need to be online, or you don’t need to have the radius on all the time, if you synchronize this, you can greatly reduce the power consumption. And the main, and the most kind of, the biggest thing, I think, in this group is actually, we’re having regular meetings every, maybe once, twice per month, and I would really kindly like to invite you all to partake in these meetings, especially if you’re more interested in technologies, so, and this group of people that we’re kind of having right now, it’s actually, they’re coming from space industry, from academia, from many different varieties, I mean, different backgrounds, so it’s a really nice environment if you actually want to be kind of introduced to the delay touring networks. So with this, I will hand back the microphone to Alberto, thank you. And that is a physical handing over. The last speaker of this session is Professor Mohamed Slim Maluini, from KAUST, the King Abdullah University for Science and Technology, that is located here in Saudi Arabia, close to Jeddah, and he will talk a little bit about the projects in the university, and some terrestrial applications, mostly focusing on terrestrial applications.

Mohamed Slim Alouini: Thank you, Roberto. Indeed, I think I’m benefiting here from a very nice introduction made by Vin, by Kaneko, and by Samu, I am, as Roberto mentioned, Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, KAUST, and I hold UNESCO Chair, focusing on connecting the unconnected. So now you may ask yourself, how does this relate to this session and to interplanetary communication? The fact is, as Samu explained, when you talk about interplanetary communication, just because of the very basic law of physics, you have to deal with delay. The example he gave is an excellent example. Even if you go for light communication, the fastest possible way to communicate, you need 20 minutes to reach Mars, another 20 minutes to get back the signal. So you have to have a 40-minute delay. And the current terrestrial developed networking protocols essentially has to be modified, adapted, upgraded to be able to deal with this delay. Now, how can we take advantage of this, you know, technologies that have been developed for this interplanetary science for terrestrial applications? It can be useful, actually, for very basic problems that we deal with in the Earth to connect some of the unconnected villages. So assuming you have a remote village, a hard-to-reach area, where basically real-time connectivity is not possible, because we don’t have enough funding to have a satellite link, we don’t have a microwave link. Now, can we still have a light version of Internet, a non-real-time version of the Internet? And the solution is yes. One of my PhD students sitting here, Salah, has worked, for example, on how to develop non-real-time, they are called the digital education library. So you can think of schools in these villages who have, let’s say, maybe some of you know about Khan Academy. So Khan Academy, you can download it. You can install it in the village. But of course, Khan Academy is updated on a daily basis. The village may not be updating this database on a daily basis, but can take advantage of like Simon mentioned, some form of transportation system. It can be buses. It can be helicopters. If you are on an island, it can be the ships that visit the island every now and then. And updates of the local network can be done through these mules visiting the island. And here we are using delay-tolerant networking protocols and paradigm to basically make sure that we are getting your local Internet, in this case focusing on education as an example, to basically give access to people in non-real-time. And you see here the synergy for how DTN paradigm that has been already deployed for or developed for integrated science can be used for very basic needs to connect. A second example, and when we talk about connected and unconnected, we are not talking only about connecting people. We are also talking about connecting all kinds of IoT device. Now, in many cases, you don’t have the infrastructure, again, to collect information in real time. It is costly. It’s complex. So let’s assume you are trying to monitor a particular environment for prediction of, let’s say, natural disasters. So you want to throw some IoT device in these hard-to-reach areas, and you need to capitalize on some kind of maybe network from the sky, a CubeSat that basically comes on a periodic fashion. So basically, you have a very small fraction of time where you have visibility or access to this IoT device, and essentially, you will be able to pick that information and update that information. Not real-time information will be obtained, but in many applications, it’s not absolutely needed to be able to collect data and predict events. Now, the third and last example I would like to share with you, and that’s a very nice complement to this session, which is focusing on interoperability science. is the underwater world. So you probably know that Earth is covered 70%, at least 70%. I think 73% of Earth is covered by water. And believe it or not, and the first time I heard about this, I was quite surprised. I was told less than 10% of the underwater world has been discovered. So there is a lot of engineering that has to be done to learn about this underwater world. And of course, communication, underwater communication, is a big part of discovering the underwater world. And here we have, again, physics that comes into play. Why physics? Because actually, to communicate underwater is quite challenging. There are two approaches. There is the optical approach, which is very limited. We are talking about a few hundred meters. High speed, relatively speaking, but only a few hundred meters that basically the range you can get with an optical lens. Or you can use acoustic. Acoustic communication can give you a bigger range. But we are talking only about a few hundred to a couple of thousand meters of range. That’s all. So when you are trying to discover this huge ocean, essentially, you will have to rely also, in many cases, especially for exploration and environment monitoring, to embed in the environment some basically sensors, some actuators, and to visit these sensors through AUVs, through ROVs, through basically underwater submarines, and collect and receive information using delayed torrent network parallel. So that’s another example where DTN, again, can be applied. And just to finalize my kind of intervention here, what are the other related technologies? Often, when you talk about delayed torrent networking and connecting this kind of remote IoT device, energy efficiency is a critical aspect. So sometimes you can have access to solar panel if you are above water, for example, for terrestrial application. And that can be your source of energy. But nonetheless, you may want to be even more energy efficient. So one technology that is very popular in this context is wake-up receiver. So wake-up receiver is when you throw IoT device or sensors in the middle of nowhere, and you want to be in a sleep mode. Essentially, most of the time, they will just collect information on a schedule. And then when the event of communication happens, you have to wake them up, and basically through an acoustic modem that’s underwater, an optical that is underwater, or RF that’s above water, or optical also above water, and then basically wake them up. Sometimes charge them. You can use a laser source or an RF source to charge that device and collect the information that has been basically gathered over weeks or even months if you are visiting that location in a very rare fashion. So DTN is an excellent point. We are borrowing that from the basically entrepreneurial world, but also wireless power transfer and wake-up receiver is another very important technologies in this context. Thank you.

Roberto Gaetano: Thank you, Professor Slim. Before giving the floor for questions, there are two considerations that I would like to make. The first one is it seems that when we are thinking about the Internet world, all what we are doing is to get bigger throughput, faster speed, everything in an instant mode where we are continuously connected, continuously online. And we are probably losing sight of the benefit of using technologies that don’t give instant response and don’t give those big throughputs, but that can better serve specific situations or remote populations that live in underserved areas, solve specific problems that cannot be solved via a bidirectional, immediate connection. And I think that this field has not been explored enough and I would welcome further research in this area and not just in the mainstream Internet. And this is, by the way, what universities like KAUST are doing, what groups are working on. And so that’s the first consideration. The second one is you might wonder, since we are here in the IGF and the IGF is basically about Internet governance, how all this relates to Internet governance. The question is, if I can make a quick parallel between the development of what is now the traditional Internet and these new technologies, is that in the beginning, the Internet was also developed by scientists and was regarding only some niche situation. And then all of a sudden, the commercial importance of the Internet came up and all of a sudden, we sort of woke up and we realized that the governance model for bringing together different interests and develop a framework where every stakeholder has the possibility to present their positions and their needs. And I fear that the same is going to happen with satellite communication, interplanetary network, there’s a lot of satellites, already of commercial interest. And I wonder if in discussing a future asset also in terms of governance of this environment, there are some stakeholder groups that are maybe missing because they will be late in realizing that they have still an interest in how things go. I’m thinking about Internet users that will be the last to realize that they have to do something in order to get into the governance of satellite communication or for other aspects. So this is why we are bringing these themes to the attention of the Internet governance bodies. And that’s why we are here at the IGF to try to start thinking about these things before it’s too late and before having to catch up in a hurry. And I see a hand up from Vint Cerf. And Vint, you have the floor. Thank you very much for that last point, Roberto, about why are we at the IGF. I wanted to reinforce your observation.

Vint Cerf: Also, I wanted to mention that Slim mentioned the use of DTN underwater. We have done some tests probably more than a decade ago using acoustic communications underwater and the DTN protocols, just for your information. The reason that we’re at IGF is because we expect the interplanetary network to be built by multiple parties in the same way that the terrestrial Internet is built by multiple parties. And we have to manage and govern that collaborative effort. It will be similarly needed in the deep space efforts. The other thing which I think is very important is that the commercialization of space exploration and habitation and space use creates an interesting challenge. Those of you who are aware will know that there is an outer space treaty in 1967 which said no one is allowed to own anything off of the Earth. There’s no place to register a mine on the moon, for example. You can own the equipment that you place on the moon, but you’re not allowed to own the property. My guess is that that will become somewhat difficult. And at some point, we’re going to have to be speaking question of ownership and commercialization. The question then will be, where do you register any ownership? How do you resolve disputes? what’s the jurisdiction in which those disputes get resolved. We don’t have good answers to that, but we think the IGF is a good place to raise the questions because that’s where multi-stakeholder deliberations take place. And the internet gives us at least some guidance and experience in solving those problems. So we expect to be a regular feature of the IGF as the rest of the years unfold. Thank you very much. Thank you, Vint, for this contribution. And I surely think that we may, for instance, try to get at least UN or USA involved in the discussion for this question that are also legal on the outer space. Now, may I ask if there are questions from the floor? Kaneko has his hand up, by the way.

Roberto Gaetano: Sorry, I don’t have a turn of the screen. Sorry, Kaneko. So you are the first in line, and then I have other contributions from the floor.

Yosuke Kaneko: Yes, I just wanted to kind of supplement on what Vint just said. And we do have the Outer Space Treaty. It was inaugurated in 1967. What it basically addresses is that all space activities are nation states’ activity, even though it is a private sector’s activity. So that is the current space regime that we live today. But as I mentioned, the lunar surface would become a hodgepodge of multiple stakeholders’ activity. So in the end, we’re just talking about interplanetary internet for now. But I would just urge everyone to think about that the actual lunar surface venue will become a multi-stakeholder activity venue in itself. So the interplanetary internet is just one of the aspects that we are looking at right now. So just want to make a brief comment on that. Thank you, Kaneko. I see we have two questions from the floor. Good afternoon.

Audience: My name is Filipe Santos. I’m here with the Brazilian new program from the Brazilian Internet Stealing Committee, GIDM.

Yosuke Kaneko: And I’m also a software developer.

Audience: And I have been following discussions of internet governance for some time. I had the privilege in attending IGF 2022, where several important topics about digital governance, inclusion, and Swiss and Mili were discussed. Building on those discussions, I would like to bring up some points to connect them with this exciting topic of free interplanetary internet governance. In 2002, a strong focus was placed on addressing digital divides on Earth. Ensure that connectivity reaches undeserving regions. How can apply those lessons to development of interplanetary internet to ensure that its infrastructures and benefits are equitably shared not just among the space-faring nations, but for the collective advancement of humanity?

Vint Cerf: Thank you. Thank you for the question. I think that probably Vint or Kaneko will answer that. Yeah. Go ahead. It’s Vint. Kaneko probably has some answers as well. First of all, the reason that we’re doing this network is first, very pragmatic. We need it in order to run the various spacecraft to gather data back from them and to send commands, but also to link habitats and laboratories on the moon and Mars and possibly the asteroids in the future. So we need that communication system. But we also are doing it in the same spirit as the original internet design, which was intended to be very collaborative. And remember that the information that’s gathered through the Deep Space Network can be made available to everyone on planet Earth on the planet Earth by means of its terrestrial internet. So the theory behind all this is to network everything and provide equal access to shareable information for everyone who could use it. So I’m glad that you brought it up. I think our general view is that the information gathered from space exploration should be available both for scientific reasons and increasingly for commercial reasons. I will say, however, that deep space communication is expensive. It’s not nearly as richly outfitted as the terrestrial internet. And so it may be that there have to be constraints on who has access to the deep space component of the interplanetary internet. I think we’re not ready for 8.2 billion people sending their cat pictures through to Mars, for example. So there will probably be a limited patient who has access directly to the deep space network or the interplanetary network.

Yosuke Kaneko: But its results should be broadly available terrestrially. Kaneko, maybe you have some more elaboration on that. Yes, Kaneko, if you have something to add, may I ask questions and answers to be sure that I have four other people queuing up for questions. OK, I’ll make it quick then. So basically, I completely agree with the comment. There’s going to be these discussions on digital governance in the interplanetary internet. Learn from these histories from back in 2002. And commonality of the infrastructure and equitable access, I think these are really key principles that we need to pursue for the interplanetary internet. And as far as how we can bring the non-spacing space-faring nations into this endeavor is that we have various forums in space. Like the COPIUS is one of them, like the United Nations Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, where the nation states show up and talk about policies and rulemaking and information sharing. So these could be one of the venues that the non-spacing-faring countries can join. And actually, information can be exchanged and can have access to these common infrastructures. So I think these are steps that we can take for now, as of now. And I think we should advance that in the future. Aouke, you have the floor. Thank you very much.

Audience: Yes, my name is Aouke. I was working for KPMG in the Netherlands. I do really understand the need for a governance of the interplanetary internet. While we’ve seen it in the past, and for sure, we must have a debate about that. However, what I have more difficulty with understanding is how can we make the delay from 40 minutes to a fraction? Is that a possibility? Or is one we have to deal with that? Because I’m a quite impatient person. And I don’t want to wait 40 minutes for my cat’s picture to be sent into space. No, thanks. It’s Vint. You can see Kaneko and I are both laughing.

Vint Cerf: Unfortunately, Dr. Einstein has pretty much prevented us from solving the problem you pose. The speed of light is finite. And as far as we know, we don’t know how to make photons run faster than the speed of light. The consequence of this is that the delay is inescapable. And before you decide that entangled photons will solve the problem, let me tell you that that doesn’t work either. Despite the fact that entanglement may be distance independent, you can’t use that for communication. You can only get correlation out of it. So I’m terribly sorry to tell you that we can’t solve your problem with today’s physics. So can we go to the next question? If you can come here, then you can use one of our microphones.

Audience: Hello. Thank you so much. Excellent presentation. I’m Kanbaro Sainbro from the United Kingdom Foreign Ministry. This is quite new to me, so I’m just soaking it all up. But I’m just wondering what’s on to account the human rights elements of. the sort of future interplanetary internet. Is that something which you think is relevant at this stage? If so, what are the key considerations which you need the multi-stakeholder community to help you on? Thank you. Maybe I can say a word on this. Yes, this is the main reason why we would like to bring this to the attention of the Internet Governance Forum and to the other internet governance organizations so that we can have a debate on this and make sure that the human rights are taken care in the development of a policy. Thank you for the question. Is there any,

Vint Cerf: Will, do you want to take this question as well? Yes, I would. Thank you. Just very briefly, keep in mind that the architecture of the interplanetary network is intentionally open. It’s designed to allow multiple parties to participate, to implement and share resources. However, I want to emphasize that the resources of the deep space network or the interplanetary network will probably be quite limited, at least in the early days. So we have to be very careful not to accidentally assume that human rights means everyone on the planet has access to and the use of, direct use of these assets. Instead, I think we have to make sure that they have access to that is carried to earth through the deep space network, but not necessarily everyone will have direct access to it because of its limited capacity.

Audience: Very short comment from my side as well. It’s like, I think what’s good maybe with the internet, I mean, or interplanetary architectures that by the definition, it’s kind of a distribute. It’s going to be probably very hard to centralize in a way that we centralize internet today. So that’s just, I think one interesting aspect to look into, so. Thank you. Two more questions. And let’s be sure that, I would like to raise them. Okay. Hello everyone. My name is Alan Veloso. I actually work for the Brazilian Space Agency. I’m an international cooperation advisor there. And I’m also part of the youth program from Brazil, from the Brazilian Internet Community. My question would be, actually, it has already been addressed about how do we get other nations to this project? Because if you count, there are only a handful of nations that owns the capacity to develop this project and to participate. So I would like to, if possible, to elaborate more on that, but bringing the international cooperation as a principle to this project, to the five principles that you mentioned before. And also I have a question that maybe it’s more technical related to the sustainability, because we know that some, I think that radio frequencies are a limited resource. So I don’t know if there are some key considerations

Roberto Gaetano: that we must acknowledge on this project while addressing the interplanetary internet. Thank you. Who takes this short question? It’s been, just very quickly.

Vint Cerf: The network is intentionally designed so that multiple parties can implement and operate it. I would also point out to you that the consultative committee on space data systems, unless I’ve missed my guess, is open to partition, even by countries that don’t necessarily already have lift capacity. The other reason that this is getting better is that lift capacity is now commercially available through SpaceX and others. And the consequence of that is that countries that normally would not have space capability now have the potential for participating, either by directly accessing lift capacity from companies like SpaceX and others, or by collaborating with others in order to share that capacity. So between that and the notion of a deep space network, it feels to me like countries that don’t currently have space capability have an opportunity to participate. Regarding your second question about sustainability

Audience: and scarcity of spectrum, indeed, the RF spectrum is more and more scarce, but typically for interplanetary communication, to my best knowledge, what we can go for is free space optics. So basically we’ll be using the optical band of the spectrum, which is plenty of steel, at least of available wavelength and spectrum to use. So I don’t think we have a problem from that perspective for interplanetary communication. Thank you, Slim. Next question. Conoco has to stand up.

Yosuke Kaneko: Yeah, briefly. Just briefly. Just briefly, yeah. Just briefly, I just want to add that on the capacity building part. Please come to ipnsig.org. We have a full repository of how DTN works and what the interplanetary network is, and it’s all free for use. So I think that this is a good source for people to join this endeavor. And regarding the lunar frequency that you’ve just mentioned, there was a resolution at the WRC last year to assess the lunar frequencies. And I think this is going to be a top of the agenda for the upcoming WRC in 27. So just a quick note on that. Thank you, Conoco. So next question. Hello. Okay, thank you very much. All right, thank you very much for that wonderful presentation.

Audience: My name is Kunle Olorundari from Nigeria. I’m a member of a special interest group in the internet society space, so to say. At the same time, I’m the president of Internet Society in Nigeria. And I’ve been following this discussion, this conversation even before now. And I’m happy that we are discussing this even at the level of Internet Governance Forum because I think it’s one of those things that we need to really take a deep look at. And also, I’m happy that the last speaker mentioned the issue of lunar frequency because it’s one of those issues that we’re looking at at WRC, by the way. I’m a member of the 7C agenda, so to say. So my question is this, because I’m so much excited about this discussion and I think probably there may be a way in which some of us will be able to contribute to the pilot projects working group. So I want to find out, if I want to join the pilot project working group, is this something that one can come on board for? Thank you very much.

Roberto Gaetano: Yep, we are- The chairman of the group, I’m sorry, it’s Vin. The chairman of the group is Sam Aoun, so you need to talk to him. Okay, maybe if you can take the answer offline because we are out of question. I will, there are also some cards explanatory of what is our activity that they are in the booth of the dynamic coalitions. We don’t have time for wrap up, so we just- Very quickly, so if you go into the ipnseek.org page and check the project working group, I mean, you can just join in, you can actually partake, it’s open, it’s free. So we welcome everyone, especially, I mean, people interested in the space that would like to get their hands dirty with this technology, so welcome. Thank you, thank you all for coming. We had an almost full room, so thank you for coming and enjoy the rest of the conference. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Well done, Kaneko and Sam Aoun and Roberto and Slim. Thank you so much. See you on the next one. See you. It’s already taken. I know.

Agreement Points

Need for multi-stakeholder governance model

Vint Cerf

Yosuke Kaneko

Roberto Gaetano

Need for multi-stakeholder governance model similar to terrestrial Internet

Importance of open standards and protocols for interoperability

Potential for connecting underserved populations on Earth

The speakers agreed on the importance of adopting a multi-stakeholder governance model for the interplanetary internet, similar to the terrestrial Internet, emphasizing open standards and inclusive development.

Technical challenges and solutions for deep space communication

Yosuke Kaneko

Samo Grasic

Mohamed Slim Alouini

Technical challenges and solutions for deep space communication

Terrestrial applications of delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology

Underwater applications of DTN for ocean exploration

The speakers discussed the technical challenges of deep space communication and agreed on the potential of Delay Tolerant Networking (DTN) as a solution, highlighting its applications in various terrestrial and underwater scenarios.

Similar Viewpoints

Both speakers emphasized the importance of adopting governance models and technical standards similar to those used in the terrestrial Internet for the development of interplanetary networks.

Vint Cerf

Yosuke Kaneko

Need for multi-stakeholder governance model similar to terrestrial Internet

Importance of open standards and protocols for interoperability

Both speakers highlighted the versatility of DTN technology beyond space communication, demonstrating its potential applications in remote terrestrial areas and underwater exploration.

Samo Grasic

Mohamed Slim Alouini

Terrestrial applications of delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology

Underwater applications of DTN for ocean exploration

Unexpected Consensus

Relevance of interplanetary networks to terrestrial development

Samo Grasic

Mohamed Slim Alouini

Roberto Gaetano

Terrestrial applications of delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology

Underwater applications of DTN for ocean exploration

Potential for connecting underserved populations on Earth

There was an unexpected consensus on the potential of interplanetary network technologies to address terrestrial development challenges, particularly in connecting underserved populations and exploring remote areas on Earth.

Overall Assessment

Summary

The main areas of agreement included the need for multi-stakeholder governance, the potential of DTN technology for both space and terrestrial applications, and the importance of addressing technical challenges in deep space communication.

Consensus level

There was a high level of consensus among the speakers on the technical aspects and governance needs of interplanetary networks. This consensus suggests a strong foundation for future development and collaboration in this field, but also highlights the need for broader international cooperation and consideration of societal implications.

Different Viewpoints

Access to deep space network resources

Vint Cerf

Audience

Instead, I think we have to make sure that they have access to that is carried to earth through the deep space network, but not necessarily everyone will have direct access to it because of its limited capacity.

How can apply those lessons to development of interplanetary internet to ensure that its infrastructures and benefits are equitably shared not just among the space-faring nations, but for the collective advancement of humanity?

Vint Cerf emphasized the limited capacity of deep space network resources, suggesting restricted direct access, while an audience member raised concerns about ensuring equitable access for all nations.

Unexpected Differences

Overall Assessment

summary

The main areas of disagreement centered around the balance between open access and resource limitations in deep space networks, as well as the methods for involving non-spacefaring nations in the development process.

difference_level

The level of disagreement among the speakers was relatively low. Most speakers shared similar views on the importance of developing interplanetary networks and the need for inclusive governance. The differences were mainly in the nuances of implementation and resource allocation. This low level of disagreement suggests a generally unified vision for the future of interplanetary networks, which could facilitate smoother development and governance processes.

Partial Agreements

All speakers agreed on the importance of open participation in the development of interplanetary networks, but differed in their approaches. Cerf emphasized the network design, Kaneko focused on providing free resources, while an audience member sought direct involvement in pilot projects.

Vint Cerf

Yosuke Kaneko

Audience

The network is intentionally designed so that multiple parties can implement and operate it.

Please come to ipnsig.org. We have a full repository of how DTN works and what the interplanetary network is, and it’s all free for use.

My question is this, because I’m so much excited about this discussion and I think probably there may be a way in which some of us will be able to contribute to the pilot projects working group.

Similar Viewpoints

Both speakers emphasized the importance of adopting governance models and technical standards similar to those used in the terrestrial Internet for the development of interplanetary networks.

Vint Cerf

Yosuke Kaneko

Need for multi-stakeholder governance model similar to terrestrial Internet

Importance of open standards and protocols for interoperability

Both speakers highlighted the versatility of DTN technology beyond space communication, demonstrating its potential applications in remote terrestrial areas and underwater exploration.

Samo Grasic

Mohamed Slim Alouini

Terrestrial applications of delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology

Underwater applications of DTN for ocean exploration

Key Takeaways

Interplanetary networks are being developed to enable communication for deep space exploration and future space commercialization

Delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology developed for space has useful terrestrial applications, especially for connecting remote areas

Multi-stakeholder governance models similar to the terrestrial Internet will be needed for interplanetary networks

There are technical challenges like long delays and disruptions that require new protocols and technologies

Ensuring equitable access and benefits for non-spacefaring nations is an important consideration

Resolutions and Action Items

Continue development of DTN and bundle protocols through collaborative efforts

Bring interplanetary network governance discussions to Internet Governance Forum and other relevant bodies

Explore terrestrial applications of DTN technology for connecting underserved areas

Open participation in pilot projects and standards development to interested parties

Unresolved Issues

How to ensure equitable access and benefits for non-spacefaring nations

Legal and regulatory frameworks for space commercialization

Addressing potential human rights concerns in interplanetary network development

Allocation of limited deep space network resources

Spectrum allocation for lunar communications

Suggested Compromises

Limit direct access to deep space network resources while ensuring broad access to data and information on Earth

Use optical communication to address RF spectrum scarcity concerns

The reason that we’re at IGF is because we expect the interplanetary network to be built by multiple parties in the same way that the terrestrial Internet is built by multiple parties. And we have to manage and govern that collaborative effort.

speaker

Vint Cerf

reason

This comment provides a crucial link between interplanetary networks and internet governance, explaining why this topic is relevant at IGF.

impact

It shifted the discussion towards governance challenges and the need for multi-stakeholder collaboration in space exploration.

DTN has quite a big potential, at least in my personal opinion, in the sensor networks, and especially low power applications, because you don’t need to be online, or you don’t need to have the radius on all the time, if you synchronize this, you can greatly reduce the power consumption.

speaker

Samo Grasic

reason

This insight highlights practical terrestrial applications of delay-tolerant networking (DTN) technology developed for space.

impact

It broadened the discussion beyond space applications to show how this technology could benefit Earth-based communications in remote areas.

The lunar surface would become a hodgepodge of multiple stakeholders’ activity. So in the end, we’re just talking about interplanetary internet for now. But I would just urge everyone to think about that the actual lunar surface venue will become a multi-stakeholder activity venue in itself.

speaker

Yosuke Kaneko

reason

This comment expands the scope of governance considerations beyond just the interplanetary internet to the broader context of lunar activities.

impact

It prompted participants to consider wider implications of space exploration and commercialization for governance frameworks.

How can we make the delay from 40 minutes to a fraction? Is that a possibility? Or is one we have to deal with that?

speaker

Audience member (Aouke)

reason

This question, while seemingly naive, led to an important clarification about the physical limitations of interplanetary communication.

impact

It allowed Vint Cerf to explain the fundamental constraints of physics that shape interplanetary networking, deepening understanding of the technical challenges.

I’m just wondering what’s on to account the human rights elements of the sort of future interplanetary internet. Is that something which you think is relevant at this stage?

speaker

Audience member (Kanbaro Sainbro)

reason

This question introduced an important ethical dimension to the discussion that had not been previously addressed.

impact

It prompted speakers to consider human rights implications and access issues related to interplanetary networks, broadening the scope of governance considerations.

Overall Assessment

These key comments shaped the discussion by expanding it beyond technical aspects of interplanetary networking to encompass crucial governance, ethical, and practical application considerations. They highlighted the need for multi-stakeholder approaches, consideration of human rights, and the potential for space technologies to benefit terrestrial communications. The discussion evolved from a primarily space-focused conversation to one that drew important parallels with terrestrial internet governance challenges and opportunities.

How can we ensure equitable access to interplanetary internet infrastructure and benefits for non-space-faring nations?

speaker

Filipe Santos

explanation

This is important to address digital divides and ensure the collective advancement of humanity in space exploration.

How can we reduce the 40-minute delay in interplanetary communications?

speaker

Aouke

explanation

This is important for improving the practicality and user experience of interplanetary internet.

What are the key human rights considerations for the future interplanetary internet?

speaker

Kanbaro Sainbro

explanation

This is important to ensure that human rights are protected and considered in the development of interplanetary internet policies.

How can we incorporate international cooperation as a principle in the interplanetary internet project?

speaker

Alan Veloso

explanation

This is important to ensure broader participation and representation in the development of interplanetary internet.

What are the key considerations for sustainability and resource management (e.g., radio frequencies) in the interplanetary internet project?

speaker

Alan Veloso

explanation

This is important to ensure the long-term viability and efficient use of resources in interplanetary communications.

How can individuals join and contribute to the pilot projects working group?

speaker

Kunle Olorundare

explanation

This is important for expanding participation and expertise in the development of interplanetary internet technologies.